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Old 02-16-12, 08:15 AM   #1
robert schlatte
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straight guage/ DB spoke combination

I am building a 36 hole x3 new front wheel with a Tiagra hub and Sun CR18 rim. I have 28- 296mm DB spokes and 8- 298mm straight gauge. The spoke calculator calls for 297.6 mm spokes. I have several questions for you experts: 1) will the 296 mm be okay? 2) is it okay to lace in the SG spokes with the DB ones? and 3) if okay, should the SG ones be trailing or leading? Thanks for your advice
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Old 02-16-12, 09:20 AM   #2
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We need to know:

1. Holes and Crossing
2. ERD - and what the assumption was for the ERD in terms of nipple used and aiming point.

Then we can answer the "too short or not" question...

=8-)
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Old 02-16-12, 09:22 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
We need to know:

1. Hole and Crossing
=8-)
The OP stated 36H, 3x.
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Old 02-16-12, 09:29 AM   #4
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The OP stated 36H, 3x.
Just caught that...still awaiting ERD info that was used...

=8-)
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Old 02-16-12, 09:38 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert schlatte View Post
I am building a 36 hole x3 new front wheel with a Tiagra hub and Sun CR18 rim. I have 28- 296mm DB spokes and 8- 298mm straight gauge. The spoke calculator calls for 297.6 mm spokes. I have several questions for you experts: 1) will the 296 mm be okay? 2) is it okay to lace in the SG spokes with the DB ones? and 3) if okay, should the SG ones be trailing or leading? Thanks for your advice
1) Maybe.
2) Yes.
3) Doesn't really matter.

Build the wheel with what you got. If you start breaking or stripping nipples, the spokes were too short. The other two questions are minutely academic compared to the first.

-although-

If the answer to questions 2&3 really matter to you, then you should get the proper length of spoke with consistent butting right at the outset.
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Old 02-16-12, 09:40 AM   #6
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I went ahead and assumed the OP was using SpokeCalc and the 612 ERD which is a hair shy of the very top of a standard profile nipple.

I plugged in 611 which is what I use which is between the flat and top.

ERD 612 comes out to 297.90
ERD 611 comes out to 297.40

Two things pop-out...

1. There's very slight possibility of running out of threads on the 298's before optimal tension IF the OP uses 12mm nipples...some are restrictive - some are not. 10mm nipples make it a non-issue entirely.

2. 296.00 would end up likely 1.0mm below the screw driver flat of a standard profile nipple. For 10mm nipples, you'll definitely have several threads showing on the barrel side. With 12mm nipples "thread show" is a slight possibility.

Long as the spoke-end for the 296.00's isn't too much lower than that - they'll work.

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 02-16-12, 09:42 AM   #7
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-although- pt. 2:

If you're building this wheel for you, go for it.

If this is for a friend and you're building for them on the cheap, go for it, but let them know this is best/cheap compromise based on material at hand.

If you're doing this for a customer or someone outside close friend/family circle, get the right size spokes with consistent butting at the outset.
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Old 02-16-12, 09:43 AM   #8
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Mr. Rabbit,

To come up with 297.6, I used FreeSpoke calculator. It indicates 612 ERD for the Sun CR18 rim. The website does not indicate an assumption for the nipple used but I am assuming the standard 12mm. Sorry, I do not know what you mean by "aiming point." Under offset drilling, it indicates 0 L, 0 R. I hope this helps?
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Old 02-16-12, 09:48 AM   #9
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you could. Because of the way I was taught to build wheels the shorter spokes may cause some issues, since I was taught to wind the nipples o to the end of the thread as the first step in tension/truing.

I would never mixe length or DB v SG in a new build. it is OK to slip a SG into DB when repairing but I think you may have issue building that way
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Old 02-16-12, 09:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert schlatte View Post
I am building a 36 hole x3 new front wheel with a Tiagra hub and Sun CR18 rim. I have 28- 296mm DB spokes and 8- 298mm straight gauge.
I would probably shell out the $8 for 8 more DB spokes to match the ones you have. You may be able to build the wheel (assuming length is ok) but it will be a pain to get properly tensioned because you're working with spokes of 2 different gauges and lengths.

Using a quality rim a wheel can be built with almost no truing needed simply by threading the nipples until the threads just disappear and tightening evenly from that point. To me that convenience would be worth $8, I've tried building from the mismatch spoke pile before...
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Old 02-16-12, 09:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
-although- pt. 2:

If you're building this wheel for you, go for it.

If this is for a friend and you're building for them on the cheap, go for it, but let them know this is best/cheap compromise based on material at hand.

If you're doing this for a customer or someone outside close friend/family circle, get the right size spokes with consistent butting at the outset.


I am building for myself using available spokes that I already own, so I will go ahead and build the wheel. Thanks for your response.
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Old 02-16-12, 09:54 AM   #12
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That's a good point about buying 8 more db spokes.
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Old 02-16-12, 09:59 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by robert schlatte View Post
Mr. Rabbit,

To come up with 297.6, I used FreeSpoke calculator. It indicates 612 ERD for the Sun CR18 rim. The website does not indicate an assumption for the nipple used but I am assuming the standard 12mm. Sorry, I do not know what you mean by "aiming point." Under offset drilling, it indicates 0 L, 0 R. I hope this helps?
ERD is not a standard...it is driven by the wheel builder with the threads, nipples and rim characteristics at hand.

ERD is simply the distance between the ends of opposing spokes in an already built and functional bicycle wheel.

The 612 ERD you used fall under the "flush with the head of a 10mm standard profile nipple" reference often used.

It's what SpokeCalc uses as a reference. Myself and others use a reference of "the flat or slot of a 12mm standard profile nipple."

Long as the numbers are published with a nipple type, size and aiming reference - the number that is published can be applied and even adjusted by wheel builders who understand how this all works.

http://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php

Grab the spreadsheet...

Open and select the "spokechart" tab.

At the top enter 18 and 3.

Down below, put in for "diameters" 610, 611 and 612.

Then scroll all the way down to "Shimano 1991+" section and look for Tiagra.

You'll see your lengths for "flat of nipple", between "flat and top" and "top" of nipple.

Hopefully that'll provide the mental picture you need...and you'll "see" the rough vicinity of where the 296's might end up at.

=8-)
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4000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 02-16-12, 10:04 AM   #14
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCXFK...En_PcY4VLuZMgh

This video explains why it doesn't hurt to test the spokes you have with the nipples you have. Take your 298s and test 'em - if the go past the top at least one thread - then the 298's are probably good to go.

=8-)
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Disclaimer:

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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 02-16-12, 10:26 AM   #15
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Mr. Rabbit- thanks. So, if I am understanding correctly, the "top" of the nipple is the absolute top of the nipple and the "flat" is at the bottom of the slot??? If that is correct, according to your spreadsheet, the 296 spoke should end up 1.9mm below the top of the nipple and 0.9mm below the flat of the nipple.
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Old 02-16-12, 10:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by robert schlatte View Post
Mr. Rabbit- thanks. So, if I am understanding correctly, the "top" of the nipple is the absolute top of the nipple and the "flat" is at the bottom of the slot??? If that is correct, according to your spreadsheet, the 296 spoke should end up 1.9mm below the top of the nipple and 0.9mm below the flat of the nipple.
That's the gist of it...careful with the word "should". You never know until you build...plus Sun rims vary within each model by a lot. But don't believe just me, others here will tell you the same....

Good Luck!

=8-)
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Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 02-16-12, 12:20 PM   #17
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maybe the 16 on the right rear.. 14 Ga. for the higher dish tension.
[& cheaper to bring spares]
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