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  1. #1
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    classic road bike rear wheel build

    Hi people.

    first time i am going to build a dished wheel,

    quick story.

    my PUCH came with a gipimme rear hub, and a regina 6 speed, rear spacing was 126mm

    I decided to restore the correct parts-
    campy record low flange,
    NOS mavic argent 10 rims,
    I found for sale a NOS Marchisio IKO SPORT 7 speed alloy freewheel and thought this would be nice to loose some 200g.

    the chain just touches the dropouts and also the small plastic adjuster that sticks out of the dropout,

    so

    I swapped axle spacers and now I got 128.5mm, the hub seems to just slide in perfectly, and i have a nice 2-3mm gap between the frame and the chain.

    my flange distance: left. 36.75 mm rt. 20.25 mm

    now the question is there a point where the right is just too small to build a good wheel? should I reduce the distance by a millimeter, will it make much difference

    Mike In Finland

  2. #2
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    If you use one of the online spoke calculators.. Machine Head or I believe Edd had a feature too.. that gives left to right side spoke tension ratio's. Machine Head (WheelCalc) gives kgf for each side tension.. your stats give around 60 to 107 kgf left to right.. that should work fine. Unless your a very heavy rider........

  3. #3
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    I really wish folks would stop advocating "band aids", "guessing", etc. when there are specs available for drive side spacing for freewheel type hubs.

    Freewheel Stop to End-Of-Locknut = 36mm min. (Try not to go past 37mm)
    Flange Center to End-Of-Locknut = 43mm-44mm

    The 36mm part is most important - and really determines the other. GET THIS PART RIGHT!!!

    Use the non-drive side to finish the 126mm OLD spec. There you can "fudge" a little if necessary. The spec is actually 125mm-127mm - but closer to 127mm is better.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  4. #4
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    SPECS.. what specs? You build the thing to clear the right side dropout with chain and gears with FW clearing spacing... all the space you can get left for higher NDS tension....... if said frame takes some widening...... and go for it.

    Ain't 'xactly rocket science.

  5. #5
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    There's no need for the trial and error that has been suggested so far. There are clearly published specs:

    Here they are:

    A = Freewheel Stop to End-of-Locknut
    B = Drive-Side-Flange-Center to End-of-Locknut
    C = Outside-of-Locknut to Outside-of-Locknut

    Regular 5 and 6 Speed

    A = 29.00mm for 5 Speed
    A = 35.00mm for 6 Speed
    C = 120.00mm-122.00mm

    Narrow 6 Speed, 7 Speed and 8 Speed

    A = 31.00mm for Narrow 6 Speed
    A = 36.00mm for Narrow 7 Speed
    C = 125.00mm to 127.00mm

    A = 40.50mm for Narrow 8 Speed
    C = 130.00mm or 135.00mm

    Sources:

    Sutherland's 5th Edition, Page 10-5
    Sutherland's 6th Edition, Page 10-6

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  6. #6
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Most folks who want to build a classic 80s 126mm 6/7 Speed rear hub will simply go:

    A = 36.00mm
    B = 43.00mm to 44.00mm
    C = 126.00mm to 127.00mm

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  7. #7
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    I'm with mrrabbit in that there's no need to guess. Freewheels are of set widths, and you want the absolute minimum clearance for the chain to dropout possible. Anything less won't work, anything more increases the R/L tension difference. There is a bit of room to pinch down on the 36mm dimension, but only if using Regina freewheels, which stack slightly lower from stop to outermost sprocket.

    As far the relative R/L tension. That's cut into stone (er. aluminum) the minute the hub is built. From there geometry determines the ratio which is (roughly) equal to the R/L CTF distance ratio (reversed). The only ways to improve the L/R tension ratio for a given hub, are to use offset (to one side) drilled rims, or to build to the wrong side of zigzag drilled rims.
    FB
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    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  8. #8
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    more info on this hub setup

    first, thanks for so many educational details I never knew
    here is some more info on my build

    A: 37
    B:44
    C:128.5
    my weight 77kgs

    I am happy to do all this BEFORE ordering my dt revolution spokes!


    if it is insisted, I can loose one millimeter by swaping the indexed washer for a thinner one.

    if it is insisted i can look for a thinner aluminum spacer and get that chain way close to the newpaint job.



    I am going to put everything together and test ride it before stripping her down for a paint job.

  9. #9
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    If there's no way you can remove 1mm from the drive side, then don't sweat it. You're pretty darn close. If you can (without risking damage to frame or paint), go for it so you have 36mm and 43mm. It would very slight improve NDS tension...

    Effect on spoke length will be virtually nil...

    =8-)

    Good Luck...

    ...and show us some pics when you're done!

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
    first, thanks for so many educational details I never knew
    here is some more info on my build

    A: 37
    B:44
    C:128.5
    my weight 77kgs

    I am happy to do all this BEFORE ordering my dt revolution spokes!


    if it is insisted, I can loose one millimeter by swaping the indexed washer for a thinner one.

    if it is insisted i can look for a thinner aluminum spacer and get that chain way close to the newpaint job.

    I am going to put everything together and test ride it before stripping her down for a paint job.
    Moving the shell 1mm in either direction won't change your spoke length, so you can go ahead and order them.


    I don't speak for others, but I don't insist you do anything. They're your wheels, and you can do whatever you want. But bear in mind, that on a typical rear wheel moving both flanges only 1mm to the right will result in an almost 10% increase in left side spoke tension (for the same tight side tension), so pays to get as far to the right as. possible
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  11. #11
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    ok that answers the question, I will take out one mill on the drive side.

    pictures...
    If people really want to see my champagne color PUCH Ultima I gues I can post it, she looks awful, wrong bars, no brake hoods, the seat is off.

  12. #12
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Post pics after:

    1. You've waxed and washed 3 times...
    2. Installed and aligned perfectly the bars and saddle.
    3. Installed the hoods.
    4. Cleaned every part free of even one spec of grime...
    5. Aligned labels in "correct" direction, etc..

    ...among other obsessive compulsive disorder categorized aspects...

    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  13. #13
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    I will wait untill I am ready to dis assemble the bike...then make a nice thread on the progress!

  14. #14
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
    should I reduce the distance by a millimeter, will it make much difference
    Minimise dish every bit you can. I'd spend an hour to gain a millimetre. 7spd @128.5mm isn't bad at all, but dish sucks so I'd make the most of it. 77kg isn't all that heavy, but more strength is always better.

    Quote Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
    if it is insisted i can look for a thinner aluminum spacer and get that chain way close to the newpaint job.
    Worth the trouble. If it slips into the dropouts easily @128.5mm, keep it at that size by adding to the left.
    Last edited by Kimmo; 04-03-12 at 11:58 PM.

  15. #15
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    As far the relative R/L tension. That's cut into stone (er. aluminum) the minute the hub is built. From there geometry determines the ratio which is (roughly) equal to the R/L CTF distance ratio (reversed). The only ways to improve the L/R tension ratio for a given hub, are to use offset (to one side) drilled rims, or to build to the wrong side of zigzag drilled rims.
    Um, aren't you forgetting increasing OLD?

  16. #16
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    Ok the results are in:

    I went in the shop and found a thinner indexed washer..
    my hub is now:

    A: 36
    B:43
    C:127.5
    my weight is now 78kgs

    I also noted the deraileur side dropout was bent outward and the hub clearly did not have a level mating surface,
    I took out the ruler and confirmed this,
    With the use of a BIG C Clamp I adjusted it and now the hub has good mating surface,
    The chain does not touch-this may have been part of my initial problem.
    Im happy to do all this adjusting before it goes to the paint shop!
    thanks everyone,

    mike in finland...waiting for the snow to melt!

  17. #17
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Going by the book is fine if you're running a shop and want to get bikes in and out in a fairly timely fashion with consistent results. Albeit, consistent doesn't mean optimum results. And in many areas, it's consistently mediocre results, such as aligning the outer FD cage parallel with the chainring; it's easy to teach newbie mechanics and they can pick it up quickly. But it's not the best that can be done.

    What I've done on these freewheel builds is to spin down on a lathe the freewheel stop on the hub shell by 1-2mm to move both flanges to the right. A Shimano 7-spd freewheel is 31.9mm wide and I give 3mm to clear the chain (I also minimize Q-spacing at the cranks to pull the chain away from the rear-dropouts). So my optimum A-dimension is 35mm along with 128mm OLD reduces dish by 4-6mm for more balanced spoke-tension than the book predicts for the exact same parts. I've had many of these wheels go for over 50k-miles over 8-10 years without any problems other than minor truing once or twice a season.

  18. #18
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    i had a thought about the lathe, but as my freewheel is an aluminum one I know it will not last forever, plus the hubs are campy...
    I can always take material off later, not put it back on

  19. #19
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    lathe...one tool I still need in my environment...arghh...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

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