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Old 05-14-12, 09:36 PM   #1
skeem
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spokes a tiny bit short?

I know this has been discussed ad nauseam, and I know i should have first tried to search more before I beg for help, but my brain doesnt want to think about filing my own bikes after fixing others' all day. Anyway...

Im building some king r45's on reflex rims 32h x 2 cross with revolution spokes. calc. came out to 292.2 for the front so I rounded down and found some 291mm spokes in my house (saving me $$$). I could have used my 293mm spokes but I like to round down. I rounded down 1.2mm.

After a careful build process I have a perfect wheel which feels about at tension, but a vast majority of the spokes have about 1-1.5 threads exposed beyond the nipple. some spokes have no threads showing, as well. the wheel is PERFECT in every other way (super easy build up), but will these exposed threads be an issue? I know you need the threads of both the nipples and spokes to be engaged as much as possible , but does anyone have experience enough to say that 1-1.5 threads not engaged will not be an issue? If it is I can man up and buy 292 spokes

Two considerations: I weigh 135-140 lbs, and these will be a race only wheelset. (those facts notwithstanding, I want this wheelset to last me a while barring any crashes)

Thanks
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Old 05-14-12, 09:55 PM   #2
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I ain't braggin, but I did it before and it worked ok.
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Old 05-14-12, 10:01 PM   #3
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i have a set of wheels with that amount of threads showing and it hasn't been a problem... yet.

a low cost option is to buy the longest nipples you can find. yes, some are longer than others, up to 14mm maybe more. this may help.
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Old 05-14-12, 10:01 PM   #4
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Test from the other side - the head - not the barrel and threads.

If you see that the ends of the spokes are more than 2mm down below the flats AND there are thread on the barrel side, you are too short.

=8-)

Actually you are way too short....

Spoke length should be 293..17

You took spokes out of a box lablelled 291.00? If so they are probably actually 290.50mm...since many boxed spokes are .5mm shorter than the label...

That puts you at 2.5mm shorter than a spoke length that was intended to reach the screwdriver flats....

=8-(
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Old 05-14-12, 10:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
i have a set of wheels with that amount of threads showing and it hasn't been a problem... yet.

a low cost option is to buy the longest nipples you can find. yes, some are longer than others, up to 14mm maybe more. this may help.
Nipples are exactly that - nipples. They are are not spoke extenders nor were they intended as such.

To do so is to simply hide the problem...

=8-)
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Old 05-14-12, 10:11 PM   #6
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please, brag away... did it last long term?
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Old 05-14-12, 11:10 PM   #7
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yes, it was from one which said "291". which spoke calc did you use? I like the dt swiss one, but perhaps I messed up with the ERD? (mavic always seems to list 2-3 different ones per wheel recently).


I just went an recalculated using a different calc. and still got 292. i did, however, get 293.5 when i changed the erd to 610+3 (for mavic nipple seat blah blah blah) it came out to 293- is that how you do it with mavic? i personally build with dt stuff but have had no issues with mavic measurements for customers on the other hand.

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Old 05-14-12, 11:10 PM   #8
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Nipples are exactly that - nipples. They are are not spoke extenders nor were they intended as such.

To do so is to simply hide the problem...

=8-)
i have to say i don't agree.
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Old 05-14-12, 11:13 PM   #9
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huey, trust me (and mrrabbit), that solution does not work. threads will (almost) always be the same distance extending from the rim.
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Old 05-14-12, 11:15 PM   #10
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huey, trust me (and mrrabbit), that solution does not work. threads will (almost) always be the same distance extending from the rim.
as you say "almost" which is also why i equivocated (which i did intentionally) in my post, with "this MAY help".

in addition, i've built a set of wheels that i didn't like because, like the OP stated, i noticed that there was a bit of thread showing. i logged onto a few spoke calc programs and noticed that some of them demanded a nipple length as a required parameter for calculating the spoke length. i also noted that a longer nipple length specified as input, resulted in a shorter specified spoke length.

soooo, i bought some longer nipples and rebuilt the wheel with no threads showing. it's still going strong.

it will be hard to convince me that my experience is misleading me. but it's possible, i suppose.

i will say this. over the years i've had occasion to buy several different extra long nipples (14mm, i think) and although they all have more threads on them than the any of the 12mm ones i've tried, there is no uniformity between manufacturers that i am aware of.

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Old 05-15-12, 07:36 AM   #11
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huey, you may be right, but i tried to cheat on a wheelbuild with xl spokes over the summer and i was really not confident in the build so i ate the cost of a box of black revolution spokes (if you need 294's im your guy!!!) and got the right size. today at work ill look for 293's, or just order some spokes

i would agree with the non uniformity thing though. im not the biggest fan.
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Old 05-15-12, 10:09 AM   #12
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spoke needs to come up to the bottom of the screw slot in the nipple,

un supported nipples , ie with short spokes, the nipple head can break off..
with fatigue..
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Old 05-15-12, 11:06 AM   #13
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Nice parts! Now do it right. That means getting the right length spokes. The correct way is to have the spokes come through to the end of the nipple. That's why spokes are sold in 1mm increments.

There are always folks that show up in these threads with anecdotes like "mine are like that, and they're working fine". That may be true, but it's like shorting your crankcase a quart of oil every time and defending it by saying "it's running fine". Maybe it is for the time being, but it still isn't "right".
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Old 05-15-12, 07:00 PM   #14
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I know wheels are supposed to be built the "right way" (just as everything else on bikes) but I wanted to know if anyone knew any defined tolerances beyond what is normal. I know the spoke must come up to the flat on the nipple, I was just curious if there was a "its not the MOST professional way to do things, but it will work for sure" kinda way. I supposed there isnt really one for wheels. I now learned 2 new things today (other was how to rebuild a rock shox lyric fork)

I detensioned my wheel over breakfast and got some 293mm spokes ready at work. i am literally about to rebuild my wheel.
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Old 05-15-12, 07:42 PM   #15
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The spoke doesn't have to come up to the flat of the nipple - it needs to clearly penetrate the full depth of the thickness of the wall of the rim that is providing the support for the nipple head.

With most standard profile nipples, it's a point about a millimeter below the flat of a standard profile nipple - give or take a slight amount to reflect differences from one manufacturer's nipple to another.

By penetrating the full depth of the rim wall - you virtually eliminate the end of the spoke as a stress riser where the barrel transitions to the head.

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
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4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 05-15-12, 09:12 PM   #16
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^^^ you know too much. Every day I tell myself Im a damn good bike mechanic and then people like you put me back in my place. Anyway, I used 293's as you suggested and the threads seem to overlap well; and at a nice tension the end of the spoke is by the screwdriver flat on the nipple (which i now know is NOT the most accurate way of determining if the spokes are the right length). By the way, which spoke calc did you use? I only got 293 when I added 3mm to the erd as certain sites say about mavic rims, but I called mavic today and the nice man on the dealer hotline said adding 3 mm is bogus (i agree).

Thanks for the suggestion though, I laced the wheel during 1 side of an LP and tensioned it up during the other, and it all came together perfectly as the recorded ended.
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Old 05-15-12, 09:52 PM   #17
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http://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php

The spreadsheet...doesn't hurt to grab the .exe as well for OCR and OFFSET drilled rims...custom stuff...etc...

I find that when I add 2mm for Mavic SSD's it seems to approximate an ERD that aims for the nipple flat for MTB rims. 1mm for most road - however - sometimes 2mm. As many have said, it's best to measure your own ERD.s...

In your case I took Mavic's 610mm SSD for their reflex tubular and added 2mm to guess at an ERD of 612mm aiming for the flat....for the Open Pro I take 602mm and just add 1mm....seems to vary model to model...

=8-)

Keep in mind that I update my spreadsheet frequently...so it's something that need to be downloaded at least 1 a week...it's got a Hub Motor update coming soon...plus I'm still working on a Modified Triplet tab for AEO.

=8-)
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Disclaimer:

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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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