Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-24-12, 06:14 AM   #1
chuckb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Radial runout spec for a tire?

What is a reasonable spec for radial runout or "out of round" for a good tire, properly installed on rims that are true?

I have Schwalbe Ultremo ZX on Zipp 101 wheels. The wheels are true and round, but if I spin the wheels, I can see a clear bump (~2mm in front, 1 mm in back) in the tire as it spins. (Doing the same eyeball test, with a mm scale ruler held by the wheel, the lateral and radial variation of the rim is under 1 mm, probably closer to 0.5)

I've had issues with vibration/shimmy on the bike (Cervelo R5). Truing the wheels helped, but on the last ride, I thought I could feel a sort of pulsing vibration on a descent. That's why I looked at the wheels/tires.

I've read about the issues with Schwalbes and I'm seriously thinking of going back to the old reliable, Continental 4000.

Can anyone shed light on what a reasonable expectation is for radial runout of a tire?
chuckb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 06:56 AM   #2
rhenning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,483
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Tire is not fully seated on the bead is the most probable cause. Roger
rhenning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 08:09 AM   #3
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 19,697
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 457 Post(s)
Depends on obsessive level. deflate and re seat high spots till satisfied ..
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 08:31 AM   #4
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,685
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
I don't know if there's a standard per se, and how a tire varies is as last as important than how much. A tire that varies in a long trend may not affect riding, but one with a more local variation will be a serious issue.

As others said, I'd try reseating the tire and work it around sreading away from the high spot and get it as good as I could. If that wasn't good enough, I'd switch to another brand tire.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 08:51 AM   #5
chuckb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I don't know if there's a standard per se, and how a tire varies is as last as important than how much. A tire that varies in a long trend may not affect riding, but one with a more local variation will be a serious issue.

As others said, I'd try reseating the tire and work it around sreading away from the high spot and get it as good as I could. If that wasn't good enough, I'd switch to another brand tire.
I did deflate and reseat it several times, to no avail. The bump is pretty localized; if I spin the wheel and hold a marker just above the wheel outside surface, I get a mark that is about 15 cm long, which is 6% of the wheel perimeter, so it's pretty localized. The clincher is that the rear tire has the same symptom, although not as badly, and a hairline crack in the sidewall.

Took it to the LBS this morning they are putting new tires on it, the questions asked. I'm going back to Continentals and won't use Schwalbe again. The Ultremo ZX is a nice light tire, but not durable and Schwalbe still seems to have serious manufacturing issues. These tires had less than 300 miles on them.
chuckb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 08:59 AM   #6
DCB0
Banned.
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Bikes: CCM Torino 76
Posts: 937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckb View Post
I did deflate and reseat it several times, to no avail. The bump is pretty localized; if I spin the wheel and hold a marker just above the wheel outside surface, I get a mark that is about 15 cm long, which is 6% of the wheel perimeter, so it's pretty localized. The clincher is that the rear tire has the same symptom, although not as badly, and a hairline crack in the sidewall.

Took it to the LBS this morning they are putting new tires on it, the questions asked. I'm going back to Continentals and won't use Schwalbe again. The Ultremo ZX is a nice light tire, but not durable and Schwalbe still seems to have serious manufacturing issues. These tires had less than 300 miles on them.

Ironically, I have found in the past that Conti tires are the worst in terms of being impossible to seat perfectly, especially wider touring tires. Their road tires kick butt, though.
Specialized tires - high rate of failed sidewalls and bead/sidewall interface, but the ones that don't fail are good.

Edit: When you did the test with the marker was the line always in the same spot on the tire or did it move around the tire when the tire was deflated and reseated?

Last edited by DCB0; 05-24-12 at 09:01 AM. Reason: Asking for more info.
DCB0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 09:19 AM   #7
FastJake
Constant tinkerer
 
FastJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Bikes:
Posts: 7,574
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've never had a problem with lumps in road tires, although I have never used Schwalbe. Usually they are so narrow that they only mount "one way." The tires I have more trouble getting to run true are fat MTB tires. In particular, one pair of 26x2.35 Kenda Nevegal's on some WTB Laserdisc rims are virtually impossible to get all the way seated. It's not a problem when riding, but it just looks so awful to see it be ~5mm off radially.
FastJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 09:26 AM   #8
gyozadude
Senior Member
 
gyozadude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sunnyvale, California
Bikes: Bridgestone RB-1, 600, T700, MB-6 w/ Dirt Drops, MB-Zip, Bianchi Limited, Nashbar Hounder
Posts: 1,180
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Each tire varies, but some brands have more runout than others, no matter how you mount them.

Percentage-wise, even the best made tires have about 5% - 10% variance between low-to-high points on a mounted casing. On a 20mm tire, this means +/- 1mm either in or out from the average. Seems like you're doing the right things with the marker and dismounting/remounting after turning.

My worst experience is with discount Vee Rubber tires. On road tires in 27 in. and 700c, they vary upto 20% and hit brake arches. I'm surprised by the experience with Schwalbes. I've found them very reasonable for runout in many widths, especially wider hybrid tires and have recommended them highly. They're better than Michelins for runout, which I was pretty impressed with already for having very well priced import road tires that had low runout. But each maker can have some bad ones and sometimes, it might be a whole batch that's just at the outer range of what will pass QC.
gyozadude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 11:33 AM   #9
Hopslam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Had same issue with 2 conti 4 seasons they where replaced warrenty if you mark the bad spot ( on tire ) it's easier to know it's not a seating problem.

Cheers
Hopslam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 11:55 AM   #10
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,685
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Tire seating used to be very predictable, it either was or wasn't with nothing in between. That was back in the days of Endrick pattern rims where rim had shoulders where the tire seated the same way auto and motorcycle tires do. This design provides very reliable seating because it's easy to mold tires for an accurate fit there.

Nowadays most road rim are hook edge, which offers the benefit of better hold at high pressure. The design grips the bead wire under the hook held there by the tire pressure. The problem is that many (most?) don't have well defined recesses for the hook, nor shoulders for the tire to seat on, and therefore have no mechanism to precisely locate the tire seat.

If you want better or more precise seating on hook-edge rims, I suggest you select tires where the bead forms a hook to the outside with a molded pocket for the rim's hook.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 08:46 PM   #11
chuckb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCB0 View Post
Edit: When you did the test with the marker was the line always in the same spot on the tire or did it move around the tire when the tire was deflated and reseated?
Yes, I did that and the high spot was in the same place each time. LBS put Conti 4000s on today and they are round to less than 1 mm. Tomorrow I'll ride and see how it feels.
chuckb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-12, 10:46 PM   #12
IthaDan 
Senior Member
 
IthaDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ithaca, NY
Bikes: Click on the #YOLO
Posts: 4,871
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckb View Post
I did deflate and reseat it several times, to no avail. The bump is pretty localized; if I spin the wheel and hold a marker just above the wheel outside surface, I get a mark that is about 15 cm long, which is 6% of the wheel perimeter, so it's pretty localized. The clincher is that the rear tire has the same symptom, although not as badly, and a hairline crack in the sidewall.

Took it to the LBS this morning they are putting new tires on it, the questions asked. I'm going back to Continentals and won't use Schwalbe again. The Ultremo ZX is a nice light tire, but not durable and Schwalbe still seems to have serious manufacturing issues. These tires had less than 300 miles on them.
Do you use nuts on your presta stems?
__________________

Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang
IthaDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:02 AM.