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  1. #1
    Junior Member mr9iron's Avatar
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    9 speed Campy levers with 9 speed Shimano drive train possible?

    Is it possible to use 9 speed Campy levers with 9 speed Shimano drive train without using a Jtek pulley? Two members of another cycling forum say in the quote below that it can be done, but has anyone ever tried this with success?

    "you can mix and match either way with 9 speed, the spacings are nearly identical"

    Sheldon Browns site indicates almost exact sprocket thickness on the cassette but a .21mm difference on the center to center spacing as Shimano is 2.56 spacer and campy is 2.8 spacer. The difference does seem insignificant, but depending on where you adjust the derailleur, maybe the .21 mm difference creates a stack up tolerance miss match through the course of the gears?

    I am also assuming the Shimano 9 speed derailleur actuates nearly the same as a Campy one...

    I have recently asked this question before in different ways (different set-ups but not the 9 speed, not in this configuration.) The reason I am bringing it up again is because I got a very nice deal on some Campy Record levers and could not refuse. I'd love to use them and clean up the exposed cabling on my bike.

    any reply appreciated...

    J

  2. #2
    Andrew R Stewart Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
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    Why do you avoid the best solution, the Shiftmate? I run them on three bikes including the tandem. Ergo levers (some are Sachs with a Campy index gear), Campy der, Shimano cassette. Yes the shift response is a touch less quick but that's what technique is for. I don't have problems with the pulley drifting on the cable and do only periodic adjustments, usually when I clean the chain and such. Done this since 2008 and over 10,000 miles of acceptence. Andy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr9iron View Post
    Is it possible to use 9 speed Campy levers with 9 speed Shimano drive train without using a Jtek pulley?
    You could use your Record levers with a 2000 and older (conventional B-tension adjustment) Campagnolo 8 or 9 speed derailleur. If your levers have rounded hoods (1998-2000) not pointed (1997) you could swap in a 10 speed index cam and use an alternate cable routing. Otherwise no.

    Two members of another cycling forum say in the quote below that it can be done, but has anyone ever tried this with success?
    There are a few similar things which work well enough for many people:

    Campagnolo and Shimano 9 speed cassette spacing is close enough that some people run Shimano wheels on their 9 speed Campagnolo setups. There's .6mm of overshift by the time you get to the second smallest cog and .8mm on the large cog.

    With the Hubbub cable routing option Campagnolo 10 speed shifters will run a Shimano deraileur and 9 speed cassette.

    Sheldon Browns site indicates almost exact sprocket thickness on the cassette but a .21mm difference on the center to center spacing as Shimano is 2.56 spacer and campy is 2.8 spacer. The difference does seem insignificant, but depending on where you adjust the derailleur, maybe the .21 mm difference creates a stack up tolerance miss match through the course of the gears?
    Shimano levers pull _a lot less_ cable per pull than Campagnolo with the same number of speeds.

    I am also assuming the Shimano 9 speed derailleur actuates nearly the same as a Campy one...
    No.

    A Record 9 speed derailleur (2000 and older 9 speed ratio, same as Campagnolo 8 speed) moves 1.4 times as far horizontally as the cable pull from the corresponding shifter.

    A Shimano 9 speed derailleur goes 1.7 times as far horizontally as the cable pull.

    Here's the canonical reference on mixed marriages:

    http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

    I have recently asked this question before in different ways (different set-ups but not the 9 speed, not in this configuration.) The reason I am bringing it up again is because I got a very nice deal on some Campy Record levers and could not refuse. I'd love to use them and clean up the exposed cabling on my bike.
    Buy a Jtek shiftmate.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 08-02-12 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr9iron View Post
    Is it possible to use 9 speed Campy levers with 9 speed Shimano drive train without using a Jtek pulley? Two members of another cycling forum say in the quote below that it can be done, but has anyone ever tried this with success?

    "you can mix and match either way with 9 speed, the spacings are nearly identical"

    Sheldon Browns site indicates almost exact sprocket thickness on the cassette but a .21mm difference on the center to center spacing as Shimano is 2.56 spacer and campy is 2.8 spacer. The difference does seem insignificant, but depending on where you adjust the derailleur, maybe the .21 mm difference creates a stack up tolerance miss match through the course of the gears?

    I am also assuming the Shimano 9 speed derailleur actuates nearly the same as a Campy one...

    I have recently asked this question before in different ways (different set-ups but not the 9 speed, not in this configuration.) The reason I am bringing it up again is because I got a very nice deal on some Campy Record levers and could not refuse. I'd love to use them and clean up the exposed cabling on my bike.

    any reply appreciated...

    J
    The short answer is no, it will not work; for one of the reasons you gave; the .21 mm difference creates a stack up tolerance miss match through the course of the gears? It,s called accumulated tolerances, which is why you can get the shifter to work on 4-6 gears, but not all across the board. You also said I am also assuming the Shimano 9 speed derailleur actuates nearly the same as a Campy one...Your assumption is wrong, the top three all have different rates of pull and rear derailleurs have different shift ratios. There are a couple combinations that are known to work with a little tweaking; 9 speed Shimano with 10 speed Campy shifters is one of the most common.

    edit: I also agree with Andrew
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    Why do you avoid the best solution, the Shiftmate? I run them on three bikes including the tandem. Ergo levers (some are Sachs with a Campy index gear), Campy der, Shimano cassette. Yes the shift response is a touch less quick but that's what technique is for. I don't have problems with the pulley drifting on the cable and do only periodic adjustments, usually when I clean the chain and such. Done this since 2008 and over 10,000 miles of acceptance. Andy.
    The Jtec Shiftmate work as advertised; I had them on a Shimano 10 speed with Campy 10 speed shifters and rear derailleur and it worked without a hitch.
    Last edited by onespeedbiker; 08-01-12 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Junior Member mr9iron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    Why do you avoid the best solution, the Shiftmate? I run them on three bikes including the tandem. Ergo levers (some are Sachs with a Campy index gear), Campy der, Shimano cassette. Yes the shift response is a touch less quick but that's what technique is for. I don't have problems with the pulley drifting on the cable and do only periodic adjustments, usually when I clean the chain and such. Done this since 2008 and over 10,000 miles of acceptence. Andy.
    Andrew, I am not opposed to trying a shiftmate, I was just wondering if it could be done without one, I have seen images of them and they look kind of squirrelly, but everyone seems to vouch for them. I don't understand how it works but was hoping one less gizmo to keep things clean looking.

    appreciate your reply.. BTW l grew up in Western NY over 30 years there, lived in Rochester 8 years, how is the old city? Can't find white-hots out west, and have been dying for a garbage plate this summer..

  6. #6
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    I have a bike with Campy 9 speed ergos and deraileurs running a 9 speed SRAM chain over a 9 speed Shimano cassette. It's one of the best shifting bikes I have. It's been great to not have a bike bound to a campy wheelset. I swap wheels around the stable all the time without issue.

    I think the issues is when you cross-pollinate shifters and deraileurs.

    Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang

  7. #7
    Junior Member mr9iron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    I have a bike with Campy 9 speed ergos and deraileurs running a 9 speed SRAM chain over a 9 speed Shimano cassette. It's one of the best shifting bikes I have. It's been great to not have a bike bound to a campy wheelset. I swap wheels around the stable all the time without issue.

    I think the issues is when you cross-pollinate shifters and deraileurs.
    Dan, thanks for your reply, excellent, this is where I was thinking of going next, The fellow I got the ergo 9 speed shifters from has the derailleur as well and I may be able to get it.. I think my Ergos are the older style cable pull, not sure if yours are.. but this is what I was looking for, someone who actually has it running...

    yes, what you describe is a considerable advantage..

    thanks

    Jeff

  8. #8
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    I have the second generation ergos of veloce grade.

    Here's the bike. Forgot to mention the shimano compact crankset (swapped the 50t for a 52t FSA ring last week)



    Looks more like this now-


    Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang

  9. #9
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    Yes, it can be done and it is documented on the web. Do a search on my user name and "shimergo". I asked a similar question earlier this year. I purchased Campy 9 speed chorus levers,Sshimano cassette and an Ultegra RD (planning on using hubbub mod, not the shiftmate), I don't have the bike built yet since I'm still deployed but all my research says it will work well. Lots of good info in my thread that shows compaibility beween different components. My 9s happened to be one of the more ideal combos outside of brand matching.

    TM

  10. #10
    Andrew R Stewart Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
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    The Shiftmate works on the same princible as the Travel Agents for brakes. The cable's inward run goes over a pulley of one size, then moves over to the adjacent pully groove of another size before exiting onto the der. So when the lever moves the cable 10mm the der sees a little bit more (say 12mm) or less (say 8.333mm) (depending whether the imput pulley is smaller or larger then the ou put one). When i first saw one I had one of those ahah, why didn't I think of that moments.

    Rochester is doing well as can be expected with Kodak going belly up. We never had much of a realestate bubble to began with... Our educational level was always above average. But the area is hurting what with manufacturing down in general, tax bases dwindling and a flat population base. I moved back after 25 years away just 3 years ago and am glad to be back home. Andy.

  11. #11
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    I have a bike with Campy 9 speed ergos and deraileurs running a 9 speed SRAM chain over a 9 speed Shimano cassette. It's one of the best shifting bikes I have. It's been great to not have a bike bound to a campy wheelset. I swap wheels around the stable all the time without issue.

    I think the issues is when you cross-pollinate shifters and deraileurs.
    According to the hubbub chart you would need new Campy (+2001) 9 speed Ergo shifters with the old 9 (-2001) speed rear derailleur. I'm curious if this is your setup.

  12. #12
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
    According to the hubbub chart you would need new Campy (+2001) 9 speed Ergo shifters with the old 9 (-2001) speed rear derailleur. I'm curious if this is your setup.
    I don't know much about campy generations, so I'll let you decipher the vintage of the parts. I bought the bike off craigslist last fall, from a guy that said something about "the difference between shimano and campy is that campy has the whole cassette spaced inboard [some really tiny amount] but the spacing between cogs is almost identical". At least, that's what I think he said, I wasn't really listening.

    To be totally honest, it's always worked well for me, so I haven't had to put much thought into what's what. Now that I'm looking closer, the FD says "10 speed" on it, but I can't imagine that matters.

    Can't upload to my usual uploader, but here are some pictures of the setup.












    IMAG0501.jpgIMAG0502.jpgIMAG0504.jpgIMAG0500.jpgIMAG0505.jpg
    Last edited by IthaDan; 08-03-12 at 08:09 AM.

    Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang

  13. #13
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    I don't know much about campy generations, so I'll let you decipher the vintage of the parts. I bought the bike off craigslist last fall, from a guy that said something about "the difference between shimano and campy is that campy has the whole cassette spaced inboard [some really tiny amount] but the spacing between cogs is almost identical". At least, that's what I think he said, I wasn't really listening.

    To be totally honest, it's always worked well for me, so I haven't had to put much thought into what's what. Now that I'm looking closer, the FD says "10 speed" on it, but I can't imagine that matters.

    Can't upload to my usual uploader, but here are some pictures of the setup.











    The shifters and rear derailleur are both +2001. I pretty much trust the hubbub chart so other possibility is the Shimano cassette is an 8 speed not a 9. I can't really tell from your photo; could you re-count just to be sure? Thanks..

  14. #14
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    I recommend an 8s SRAM road cassette because they are so light, and inexpensive. I use a 12-26t and also like the good chrome finish.
    Shimano's 8s road cassettes are/were heavier and more expensive.

    The Hubbub cable routing will then work with the "new 9s" levers and Shimano derailer.

    If you want MTB/touring cassette ratios, the fine Shimano M900 8s cassette would be my first pick.
    Ratios offered were 12-28, 11-30(XT) and 12-32t.

    I would stay away from having to use Campag cassettes myself.

    I usually find that the 9s HG chain offers shifting-quality improvement.
    Last edited by dddd; 08-03-12 at 05:06 PM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
    The shifters and rear derailleur are both +2001. I pretty much trust the hubbub chart so other possibility is the Shimano cassette is an 8 speed not a 9. I can't really tell from your photo; could you re-count just to be sure? Thanks..
    You're really doubting me so much that you're having me count my cassette? C'mon man.

    Let's actually think about this, I'd you set the indexing in the middle cog, there are 4 shifts up the cassette, and 4 shifts down the cassette. At a difference of .21 mm, that's .84 mm off at either end. It works. I don't know what else to tell you.

    Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang

  16. #16
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    ...Let's actually think about this, I'd you set the indexing in the middle cog, there are 4 shifts up the cassette, and 4 shifts down the cassette. At a difference of .21 mm, that's .84 mm off at either end. It works. I don't know what else to tell you.
    Yep, it works, but it's still controversial because different riders have different expectations and/or standards.

    Some riders keep their cables finely tuned in the hope that each up- or down-shift will have a certain level of responsiveness, i.e. so that a quick shift made "carelessly" under pressure of the surroundings or of cardio-pulmonary and muscular exertion will be a positive shift with no overshift or hesitation.

    With any deviation in tracking of the derailer to the cog's spacing, the shifting responsiveness changes such that one has to somewhat keep track of what part of the cassette is being used or suffer over- or under-responsive shifting action.
    While riding in calm surroundings and at a moderate effort level, one can shift with quiet precision despite some tracking (indexing) error, but that is not always the case for even most riders, especially as the cable smoothness deteriorates slightly as it always does, and as the cable adjustment also varies over time.

    Another way of looking at it would be to turn the adjusting barrel on the derailer 3/4 of a turn in either direction, which for many of us would have us wanting to make a side-of-the-road adjustment.
    Suntour's early indexing systems suffered rejection in the market from bicycle dealers because of the same kind of sensitivity to adjustment that a slightly-off indexing error somewhat simulates, and suffered rejection from racers who valued a more-robust indexing precision under stressful riding conditions.

    I have found that using a one-step-narrower chain will at least make any drivetrain noticeably less sensitive to overshift when shifting to a larger cassette sprocket, and this has helped matters when I've used shifters and cassettes that were mis-matched 7 and 8-speed components.
    I have similarly found that 9-speed chains bring up the quality of shifting on older Suntour 7-speed and Ultra-6 freewheels.
    Last edited by dddd; 08-03-12 at 06:25 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
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    This isn't about my expectations: this bastardized campy system shifts better than my bike with a pair 6510 STIs attached to a 7700RD which carries a sram PC991 chain over a 7700 cassette does.

    I know none of you want to believe it, and I have no idea what kind of black magic that guy imbued on this bike, but it works. This is the third set of wheels and at least the 5th cassette I've had on it as well. It.just.works.

    edit: whatever.

    Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang

  18. #18
    Constant tinkerer FastJake's Avatar
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    Not sure if this link has been posted yet, I didn't read the whole thread. This is worth a read though: http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3946

    Obviously 10S Ergo shifters with a Shimano 8S drivetrain is the best setup Which I will be installing and testing for the first time this weekend!
    Why "derailer" is the correct way to spell the gear-change mechanism: sheldonbrown.com/derailer.html

  19. #19
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastJake View Post
    Not sure if this link has been posted yet, I didn't read the whole thread. This is worth a read though: http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3946

    Obviously 10S Ergo shifters with a Shimano 8S drivetrain is the best setup Which I will be installing and testing for the first time this weekend!
    I can endorse your decision! I did the same, using the $25 (and very light) SRAM steel cassette with Record 10s Ergo's and a 9s Dura-Ace derailer. Shown here, it shifts perfectly (using Campag C9 chain, BTW):

  20. #20
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
    You're really doubting me so much that you're having me count my cassette? C'mon man.

    Let's actually think about this, I'd you set the indexing in the middle cog, there are 4 shifts up the cassette, and 4 shifts down the cassette. At a difference of .21 mm, that's .84 mm off at either end. It works. I don't know what else to tell you.
    My bad, I'm just trying to figure this out. I tried Campy 10 shifters with Shimano 10 speed cassette (same .20mm difference) and the shifting was unpredictable (sometimes it shifted sometimes not). It would seem however that your setup works as explianed on the ctc.org site
    If, for example, the mech shifts 4.55mm instead of 4.35mm, the most it'll be out is only 0.6mm, and only in next-to-top or next-to-bottom. The rest of the reason is that the guide pulley can float about half a mm side to side, allowing at least that much misalignment between mech and sprocket without any nasty noises. Add a bit of friction though, plus some wear and tear, so the mech position varies by a millimetre or two depending on whether you're downshifting or upshifting and that 0.6mm may be all the difference between shifting or just sitting there and rattling!

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