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  1. #1
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    Raleigh Record Restore STUCK NEED ADVICE PLEASE HELP

    When I tell you all I paid 150 for it, I know you will groan. Circia 1971-73 I am guessing. But it has brand new tires and new handlebar wraps, the shifting is smooth and the only thing was the frame was dull and dinged up. Its a girls bike and I bought it for my wife who is only a rare rider at 53.

    Head Joint does not have thread in races on both sides, one side is welded in, and then the other side race tightens the shaft in place against the bearings. I dismantled it and painted the frame yesterday, saving the decals and front tube logo with masking. It came out great. I buffed out all the rust, lacquered screws and aluminum to keep it looking clean. Dismantled the crank and polished both gears and the pant guard. Cleaned off the head joint, re-greased with Pedro's. Soaked the chain and removed 35 years of gunk. This was the year that the bearing race on the chain side is welded into the tube. There is only one bearing race on the side opposite the chain.

    Here is the issue. ME ! I can only see one way to put this together. The head joint axel has a longer side and a shorter side. Longer goes into the welded in race to accept the crank. When I put it back together, the inside of the pedal opposite of the crank/chain, just rubs on the frame. Just knicks it. Seems like the whole shaft need so to come out 1/4 inch or so to keep this from happening, however if I loosen the head joint cap, the bearings will be loose. WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG? Is there a race cup that goes in before the bearings and shaft to hold it out more? If there is I can not find it. I looked in the tube and there seems to be a place in the paint where the bearings used to rub so I suspect not but its the only think I can figure that would help. I can not adjust the pedal away from the frame as it has cotter pin locks. Everything is done and find except for this and I have been wracking my brain but can not figure it out... Please help.
    Last edited by djpiazzo; 09-15-12 at 05:57 AM. Reason: old brain

  2. #2
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    It's hard to be much help because much of your terminology is misleading. My guess is that you have the bearings in upside down. That's easy to do.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Last edited by Homebrew01; 09-15-12 at 08:19 AM.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  4. #4
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    Need Help, Raleigh record bottom bracket issues...

    First thank you all for trying to help. And OK I apologize for needing a terminology transfusion... I am attaching pictures... to show what the issue if your still willing to help..

    the first pic shows the problem, the inside of the port pedal touches the frame now that I have dismantled it greased it and put it back together.
    Second pic shows the welded side of the bottom bracket
    Third shows the threaded side with the lock nut
    Fourth shows the shaft, loose bearings that go in greased to the shaft and also the threaded race with bearings and grease
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    AS there does not seem to be a way to adjust the shaft either in or out...

    And as I needed to find a way to move it to the port side (left as you sit on it) so the pedal would not rub, after I posted my first message which showed you all my level of bicycle knowledge.. embarrassing, I thought if there were a shim.. to lift the bearings away from the starboard side or welded end of the bracket. I looked into the bracket and although there was some paint missing in a ring that the bearings could have rolled around, it was certainly not smooth or clearly the case. This bracket had not been opened in so long the grease had dried out and rolled itself into little bb shapes. It was mostly dry. So I thought maybe there was some kind of shim in there I lost when I opened it up on the lawn, and so I made a shim... got it to fit, and it holds the whole shaft port side enough to keep the pedal from touching.. but I searched the lawn with a magnet and can not find one so I am abandoning that plan.. I hope someone knows what I should do without my home made shim.
    D
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #6
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    I don't really have any experience with the cottered crank bottom brackets, but I have two ideas.

    First, did you count the number of balls (bearings) you put in the drive side cup? Should be eleven. If you're missing one, the whole spindle will be shifted right.

    Second, are you sure the fixed cup on the drive side is welded? It doesn't seem likely, because this would mean that the bottom bracket would not be replaceable. It may seized, but I've heard of a cup that was welded. It is probably left-hand threaded. OTOH, if you can't turn it I guess it doesn't matter if it's welded.

    The old Raleigh BB for the cottered cranks were not standard. So be careful, I doubt you'll find replacement parts available.

  7. #7
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Is it possible you have inserted the shaft backwards ? the longer side is the drive side.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post

    The old Raleigh BB for the cottered cranks were not standard. So be careful, I doubt you'll find replacement parts available.
    Unless you're in the UK, in which case you've got a fighting chance of finding them on eBay. They are a non-standard thread though.

  9. #9
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    OK, first - the right (drive) side of the BB spindle (axles are fixed, spindles....spin) is not welded in, but is is extremely diffiicult to remove. It is correct that the threading is different than standard. Raleigh used 26 TPI (threads/inch) on both bottom bracket and headset, which is not compatible with standard "English" threading. see Sheldon Brown site http://sheldonbrown.com/raleigh26.html for a full discussion, including practicality of rebuilding the BB (but probably best to keep costs low and have her ride it as long as it lasts). The BB does take the standard 1/4" balls - 11 to a side, and put in fresh ones if possible. Google again to make sure you have assembly and adjustment right - use several sources - Sheldon, Park Tools, videos, etc. Same with the headset.

    If you have put the longer spindle extension so that it is on the drive side that is correct. If the end of the left crank arm is hitting the frame the arm may be bent - that is not terribly unusual if someone had a hard fall to the left. The less common reason would be the rear triangle being bent). If the crank arm is horizontal (pointing forward level to the ground) the pedal should be at a right angle to the frame as you look down on it. If the crank arm is bent the pedal axle will be pointing slightly forward. It's possible to straighen the arm. Just Google straighten crank arm for ideas.

    There is also sometimes a small amount of leeway in where you can place the arm on a cottered crank. When you insert the crank pin tap it only very lightly and also tighten down the nut very lightly. then tap the base of the arm outward til it stops and fully tighten the crank pin. It is extremely important for the pin to be very tight, but do not use the nut to tighten it. Again, see the link for Cottered Cranks on the same Sheldon Brown page for instructions.
    Last edited by cny-bikeman; 09-15-12 at 11:50 AM.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  10. #10
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    Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I am going to cover the issues listed in order, although cny-bikeman your answer is so appreciated.
    Steve530 - I did make sure to use 11 on each side. It may not be welded, now that you and cny-bikeman have suggested it may not be, but I thought it was and it has not moved.
    Yesterday morning it lined up fine, then I took it apart, because the crank action and sound was bad... dry bearings and found the bearings were bone dry. When I put it back together then I had the problem with the inside of the crank hitting the frame.
    SO CNY-Bikeman.. I doubt I bent the crank just taking it apart, there was not much in the way of trouble getting it apart. IN any case the pedal is at a right angle to the ground when the cotter pin it tight. SO I DID SOMETHING... when I took it apart and I still do not know what. I have a parts exploded diagram, it does not show any bearing race or cup inside the BB. SO I have given up on that idea. I will see if it is possible I moved the chain side BB nut without knowing it... and thanks for the tip on Sheldon Brown link...

  11. #11
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    [LIST][*]
    • There are no missing parts, that is everything that is supposed to be in the BB.
    • I do not recommend you use your homemade "shim," as it could fail or seize at any time.
    • I did not suggest you bent the arm - not possible. It was not clear to me that it rubbed only on reassembly.
    • You did not move the drive side cup - it's called a fixed cup for a reason, and your picture indicates it is not unscrewed at all (left hand thread, by the way). Perhaps it's just loose use of language, but we did not "suggest" that the fixed cup "may" not be welded. It is not welded - period.
    • It's hard to judge if the pedal is at a right angle to the ground. That is why I suggested placing the left crank arm horizontal toward the front of the bike and then looking at the crank/pedal from above. That way you can fairly readily compare the pedal to the line of the top tube, or even the other pedal.

    Try to move the crank arm out further on the spindle as I suggested above. I have no other explanation for why it would rub after you resassembled. Assuming the same 1/4" bearing size, the position of the spindle in relation to the fixed cup is not changeable unless the fixed cup is moved. That means that the distance of the left crank from the fixed cup (or from the center of the bike) is also fixed - within the limits of the slot on the spindle.

    Not related to the pedal hitting, but as the pic is not clear enough to tell if you've done it right I thought I should mention that the pins should be mounted such that when each crank is forward the pin has the same orientation (round end or nutted end up).
    Last edited by cny-bikeman; 09-15-12 at 12:32 PM.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  12. #12
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    HEY !!! IT WORKED cnybikeman! I put the pedal in the vise and gave it a squeeze then adjusted it over to the outside when I put it on and I AM ALL SET!
    YOU DA MAN !

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by djpiazzo View Post
    HEY !!! IT WORKED cnybikeman! I put the pedal in the vise and gave it a squeeze then adjusted it over to the outside when I put it on and I AM ALL SET!
    YOU DA MAN !
    Glad I could help. There are not a lot of us around any more who are familiar with cottered cranks.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

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