Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    Senior Member EdgewaterDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Wheel Sits Too Close to Chain stay and other Maladies

    088.jpg089.jpg090.jpg093.jpg096.jpg097.jpg


    Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get some insight on a few things:

    First, I've noticed that the rear wheel on my '86 Voyageur sits precariously close the drive-side chainstay while I can get almost my whole pinky between the wheel and the left chainstay. I've looked to see if could align or adjust via drop-out adjustment screws, but this frame has none. Also, the dropouts are vertical, if that is pertinent information. I've got a few pictures of everything if need be. What can I do to make sure the wheel sits straight?

    Second, my rear derailleur cage also sits very, very close to the spokes. I've checked to see if the hanger is bent, but it appears everything is ok. When on the largest gear, the hanger sits within 5mm or so of the spokes. It's a little worrying to me.

    I should also say that this isn't the original rear wheel. Someone replaced the OEM wheel with an Araya that has a 6 speed freewheel on it instead of the 5 speed that was stock. Would this create any spacing issues or cause any of the issues I have?
    Last edited by EdgewaterDude; 09-18-12 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Common Hub Specs for Freewheel Type Hub

    Dimension A = Freewheel Stop to End of Locknut
    Dimension C = Outside Locknut to Outside Locknut


    Regular Spacing

    5-speed C = 120.00-122.00mm A = 29.00mm
    6-speed C = 120.00-122.00mm A = 35.00mm (C = 125.00 - 127.00mm is optional)

    Narrow Spacing - Road

    6-speed C = 120.00-122.00mm OR 125.00-127.00mm A = 31.00mm
    7-speed C = 125.00-127.00mm OR 130.00mm A = 36.00mm
    8-speed C = 125.00-127.00mm OR 130.00mm A = 40.50mm (Not the best to go with...)

    Narrow Spacing - MTB

    7-speed C = 125.00-127.00mm (Not the best to go with...) OR 130.00-135.00mm A = 39.00mm
    8-speed C = 130.00-135.00mm A = 40.50

    Be aware that very old frames from the 50's and 60's often have dropout faces that are so large that the smallest outermost cog and chain will be contained within - i.e., spacing to 130mm for 8/9/10 has a high success rate for chain clearance near the seat stay.

    Be aware that relatively newer frames from the 90s onward have stays that approach the OUTSIDE of the dropouts - i.e., they're offset to the outside. This creates room for 8/9/10 setups while providing chain clearance for the chain and seat stay while the chain is on the smallest cog.

    Be aware however, that many entry to mid-range frames in the 80s had small dropouts combined with stays that hit the dropouts inline - not offset to the outside. Spreading to 130mm for 8/9/10 setups is not guaranteed to work - you need to test the clearance between the seat stay and the chain while the chain rests on the smallest outermost cog.

    =8-)
    Last edited by mrrabbit; 09-18-12 at 12:05 PM.
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  3. #3
    Senior Member EdgewaterDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the fact that someone put a 6 speed freewheel with its corresponding sized hub, this is what causes the spacing to be off?

  4. #4
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If the old hub was a 5-speed hub and meant solely for a 5-speed freewheel - not a modern day Ultra/Narrow 6-speed freewheel - you'll have a situation where the chain will reside 2mm closer to the seat stay than it should.

    If the old hub was spaced for an Ultra/Narrow 6-speed freewheel and you put an old regular spaced 6-speed freewheel on it - you'll have a situation where the chain will reside 4mm closer to the seat stay - assuming it's not scraping the seat stay already.

    =8-)

    Dimension A is the key - that determine what freewheel can be used - it's the industry's way of saying:

    "Here's what will fit on the hub, clear the seat stay chain-wise AND keep the chain line somewhere near the middle of the freewheel."

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  5. #5
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ffld Cnty Connecticut
    My Bikes
    Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
    Posts
    15,242
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I can't see anything wrong based on your pictures. (you've got 5 pictures of your QR lever) I assume you mean that the tire is almost rubbing one side of the frame ?
    The wheel spacing is not affected by the hub size. Usually, the problem is caused because the rim is not centered between the hub locknuts. So it's a little to the left or right. If you take the wheel out, and put it in backwards, with the cogs on the wrong side, is the wheel still too close to the same chainstay, or is it now close to the other one ?

    Sometimes a bent frame can be the cause, but much less common that an uncentered rim.

    As for the derailleur, I think you mean the "cage" is 5mm from the spokes. The "hanger" is the part of the frame the derailleur bolts to. As long as it doesn't hit the spokes when shifted completely on the largest cog, you are probably ok. If your bike gets dropped or crashed on the drive side, check for damage and that the gears are still good before riding. If something's bent, you could then end up with a derailleur in the spokes ... which is not fun.
    Last edited by Homebrew01; 09-18-12 at 12:41 PM.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  6. #6
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    I can't see anything wrong based on your pictures. (you've got 5 pictures of your QR lever) I assume you mean that the tire is almost rubbing one side of the frame ?
    The wheel spacing is not affected by the hub size. Usually, the problem is caused because the rim is not centered between the hub locknuts. So it's a little to the left or right. If you take the wheel out, and put it in backwards, with the cogs on the wrong side, is the wheel still too close to the same chainstay, or is it now close to the other one ?

    Sometimes a bent frame can be the cause, but much less common that an uncentered rim.

    As for the derailleur, I think you mean the "cage" is 5mm from the spokes. As long as it doesn't hit the spokes when shifted completely on the largest cog, you are probably ok. If your bike gets dropped or crashed on the drive side, check for damage and that the gears are still good before riding. If something's bent, you could then end up with a derailleur in the spokes ... which is not fun.
    We really could use a photo from the back that shows the derailleur, freewheel, right dropout and chain/seatstay in one straight on shot.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  7. #7
    Senior Member zandoval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Bastrop Texas
    My Bikes
    Univega, PR-10, Ted Williams,UO-8, Puch, PHLE, UO-18 Mixte
    Posts
    1,628
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When switching a wheel set from one bike to another I have often just put a bottom bracket spacer or two behind the freewheel... Its a quick but dirty shortcut...

    413vPlvHiiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

  8. #8
    Senior Member EdgewaterDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    We really could use a photo from the back that shows the derailleur, freewheel, right dropout and chain/seatstay in one straight on shot.

    =8-)

    As in looking directly at the side of the bike? I just took a few looking down into the derailleur, freewheel and right drop out.

  9. #9
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
    When switching a wheel set from one bike to another I have often just put a bottom bracket spacer or two behind the freewheel... Its a quick but dirty shortcut...

    413vPlvHiiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
    How does putting a spacer behind a freewheel solve the problem if the freewheel is already putting the chain up against the seat stay?

    Quick and dirty shortcuts are nice IF they're not being used to hide an underlying issue.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  10. #10
    Mechanic/Tourist
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    My Bikes
    2008 Novara Randonee - love it. Would have more bikes if I had time to ride them all. Previous bikes: 1968 Motobecane Mirage, 1972 Moto Grand Jubilee (my fav), Jackson Rake 16, 1983 C'dale ST500.
    Posts
    4,694
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yep, solves one problem, creates two more - cog close to dropout/stay and poorer chainline with small chainwheel. If it is doable it's of course important to readust the derailleurs.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  11. #11
    Senior Member EdgewaterDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

  12. #12
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As far as the hub spacing on the drive side looks, not too bad really. So long as the chain clears the seat stay when the chain is on the smallest cog - I don't see any worry at this point.

    Do make certain the derailleur limit screws high and low are set properly - the last thing you want to do is throw the chain into the spokes - that'll cost you big time. While the chain guard offer protection against that - doesn't hurt to set the limit screws right as a matter of practice.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  13. #13
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    7,432
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That fender bolt looks like it might be a problem when the chain is on the smallest cog. I had a similar level of closeness and because my derailleur hanger got bent some bad shifts would occasionally cause the chain to go off the inside of the small cog. Then it wedges between that screw, the seatstay and the cog and can be a bear to get out on the road in the middle of nowhere. A properly adjusted derailleur should avoid that particular problem however.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  14. #14
    Senior Member EdgewaterDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The fender bolt was a temporary 'holding place' while I took off the fender so we could get a better look. I do appreciate the insight on that.

    So all is well? It's totally OK that the wheel doesn't sit exactly in the center with equidistant width between each chainstay?

  15. #15
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Post #12

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  16. #16
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ffld Cnty Connecticut
    My Bikes
    Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
    Posts
    15,242
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgewaterDude View Post
    So all is well? It's totally OK that the wheel doesn't sit exactly in the center with equidistant width between each chainstay?
    It doesn't have to be exact. Different people have their own definition of "good enough". If it's not rubbing, you can ride it, or try to improve it if you want.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  17. #17
    Gammal cyklist Reynolds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    My Bikes
    1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaņa pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
    Posts
    4,317
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgewaterDude View Post
    The fender bolt was a temporary 'holding place' while I took off the fender so we could get a better look. I do appreciate the insight on that.

    So all is well? It's totally OK that the wheel doesn't sit exactly in the center with equidistant width between each chainstay?
    The hub seems OK, but still the rim can be nearer to one side if it isn't correctly dished. You should take the wheel off and check out with a dish stick.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    7,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Anybody can point where is the problem? I can't find anything weird with the bike. The other thing is that the bike is not a "high end colnago" and has some stuff here and there like for example the eyelets for the fenders in the rear like in the wrong place or maybe screws too long but can't see any problem with the bike. Even the dork wheel is still there.

  19. #19
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Unless your chain is rubbing on the dropout or the chainstay when in the smaller cogs, then there is nothing to worry about from the spacing in the back.

    If the tire is closer to one side than the other, the first thing you should do is remove the wheel, flip it around, and re-install it with the freewheel on the left and the chain riding on the axle of the other side of the wheel. If the tire is closer to the side that previously had lots of room, or more in the centre, then the problem is, at least in part, that your rim is not centred between the axle locknuts (out of dish). If the wheel is still close to the same chainstay as before, then the problem is the frame.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
    My Bikes
    86 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.
    Posts
    6,788
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    ....If you take the wheel out, and put it in backwards, with the cogs on the wrong side, is the wheel still too close to the same chainstay, or is it now close to the other one ?...
    That has my curiosity too-

  21. #21
    Senior Member EdgewaterDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    2014 Trek Domane
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'll try this little check tomorrow.

    BTW, this wheel is out of true and bent - I would not be surprised if it's not dished correctly.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,442
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Looking at the pix of the chainstay with the tire in...it looks like the frame was build for very skinny tires and the current wheel has some fairly fat tires on it. That will make any issues with dish, spacers, etc., more likely to be noticed. I would suggesting borrowing a known good wheel from someone (or may from a LBS) and slide it all the way in, hold it there or tighten the QR, and see if the rim is centered between the stays or pretty close to centered. Also be sure to take out or replace that fender mount screw with a shorter one before you end up with the chain jammed in between it and the cog as that will not be a good situation. Of course, follow with all the other replies about spacers and whatnot...

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,442
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Add: Suggest getting one of those pie-pan protectors to put in behind the freewheel so you don't have to worry about the derailleur hitting the spokes. They look a bit Walmart-ish nay Sears-ish, but it beats walking home with skin missing and a parts bill to face.

  24. #24
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, California
    My Bikes
    2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
    Posts
    3,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ksisler View Post
    Looking at the pix of the chainstay with the tire in...it looks like the frame was build for very skinny tires and the current wheel has some fairly fat tires on it. That will make any issues with dish, spacers, etc., more likely to be noticed. I would suggesting borrowing a known good wheel from someone (or may from a LBS) and slide it all the way in, hold it there or tighten the QR, and see if the rim is centered between the stays or pretty close to centered. Also be sure to take out or replace that fender mount screw with a shorter one before you end up with the chain jammed in between it and the cog as that will not be a good situation. Of course, follow with all the other replies about spacers and whatnot...
    Spacing appears to be fine, see photo...

    Dish is what others are having the OP check...he'll get back to us.

    If a tire is too fat for stays - it'll be because of the tire and the stays, not because of dish or hub spacing.

    Overlong fender mount screw has already been dealt with...

    He already has a spoke protector...

    Pay attention please...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  25. #25
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Melbourne, Oz
    My Bikes
    copy/paste links: http://velospace.org/node/36949 http://velospace.org/node/47746 http://velospace.org/node/47747
    Posts
    6,819
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgewaterDude View Post
    Second, my rear derailleur cage also sits very, very close to the spokes. I've checked to see if the hanger is bent, but it appears everything is ok. When on the largest gear, the hanger sits within 5mm or so of the spokes. It's a little worrying to me.
    LOL. I wouldn't sweat it, man.

    IMG_20120920_023429.jpg

    That's a 2mm key. Mind you, that's a G3 wheel; the spokes aren't laced.

    IMG_20120920_023752.jpg

    This is more normal; 3-4mm. Handy how the spokes cross right about where the derailleur comes nearest the wheel, innit.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •