Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-27-12, 05:29 PM   #1
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Front Derailleur- attaching a braze on FD to a band-style clamp?

I have a Shimano Ultegra 6600 band-style FD. I installed compact cranks only to discover that 6600 is not compatible with compacts. Will a 105 5700 FD fit onto the band/clamp? The clamp looks like a clamp with a braze-on (does that make sense?) Attached is a picture of the band/clamp which will hopefully clear up any confusion. Thanks in advance.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FD_clamp.jpg (79.4 KB, 29 views)
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-12, 07:35 PM   #2
Dancing Skeleton
Senior Member
 
Dancing Skeleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North of Boston
Bikes:
Posts: 260
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Are you sure about the 6600 not being compatible with a 50/34?
6600 was sold a a 50/34 set-up (the crank was a 6650)
Dancing Skeleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-12, 07:48 PM   #3
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,002
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 379 Post(s)
Not getting involved with which models are suitable for compacts, Yes, a braze-on FD can be bolted to the braze-on/clamp adapter unit. I now almost always recommend people buying a new FD buy the braze-on version and a clamp (if needed) rather than the clamp-on version. This gives them the freedom to reuse the derailleur on a frame with a different diameter seat tube simply by buying a new clamp.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-12, 08:35 PM   #4
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancing Skeleton View Post
Are you sure about the 6600 not being compatible with a 50/34?
6600 was sold a a 50/34 set-up (the crank was a 6650)
I couldn't get it adjusted to get up on the big ring and when I checked the .pdf instructions online it says it can only handle a 15 tooth or less difference between the two chainrings.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-12, 08:37 PM   #5
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Not getting involved with which models are suitable for compacts, Yes, a braze-on FD can be bolted to the braze-on/clamp adapter unit. I now almost always recommend people buying a new FD buy the braze-on version and a clamp (if needed) rather than the clamp-on version. This gives them the freedom to reuse the derailleur on a frame with a different diameter seat tube simply by buying a new clamp.
Great, thanks for your input. 5700 will definitely work with compacts, I have one on my other bike which also has compact cranks.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-12, 06:03 PM   #6
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74 View Post
I couldn't get it adjusted to get up on the big ring and when I checked the .pdf instructions online it says it can only handle a 15 tooth or less difference between the two chainrings.
The problem when going to compact is that the FD ends up too high above the big chainring (if you went from a 52t chainring). This then requires you move the FD a larger amount laterally to bend the chain to the same angle, not possible if the outer-limit screw is still in the same position. Thus slower poor shifts up to the big ring.

That FD will work just fine with compact, I've used it with a 52/34t crankset without any problems. It's a physical set-up and adjustment issue in this case. Use this Park Tool - front derailleur adjustment guide. Go in order:

1. height over chainring 1st.

http://www.parktool.com/uploads/imag...p/ft_der_2.jpg

2. then outer-cage parallel to chain in tallest gear (big-chainring & smallest cog)

http://www.parktool.com/uploads/imag...p/ft_der_8.jpg

3. then cable-tension. I prefer set with zero cable-slack at desired inner-most position when shift-lever is all the way up (no inner limit-screw to save a couple grams). Then as soon as I move the lever, the FD will also move right away for speedy shifts up. Then fine-tune with cable-tension barrel.

4. outer-limit screw. Loosen to the point where chain falls off the outside. Then slowly tighten until it stops jumping off. This allows the FD to move outwards the maximum amount for quicker shifts up from the small ring.


The only time an FD won't work with large spread between chainrings is when the chain ends up rubbing on the bottom joint at the rear of the cage. Such as when using an FD designed for doubles on a triple crankset.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 09-28-12 at 06:09 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-12, 06:56 PM   #7
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Awesome, thanks Danno for such a detailed reply, I'll get on it.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 04:24 PM   #8
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
The problem when going to compact is that the FD ends up too high above the big chainring (if you went from a 52t chainring). This then requires you move the FD a larger amount laterally to bend the chain to the same angle, not possible if the outer-limit screw is still in the same position. Thus slower poor shifts up to the big ring.

That FD will work just fine with compact, I've used it with a 52/34t crankset without any problems. It's a physical set-up and adjustment issue in this case.
The only time an FD won't work with large spread between chainrings is when the chain ends up rubbing on the bottom joint at the rear of the cage. Such as when using an FD designed for doubles on a triple crankset.
I followed your steps above to the letter and could not for the life of me get the Ultegra FD adjusted so that it will shift up to the big ring. So, I broke down and bought the 105 5700 FD and I'm having the exact same problem. Turning the high adjustment screw does not appear to be moving the FD at all and I don't know why that would be.

It's an 80's Bianchi frame that has been "converted" to 20 speed w/ compact cranks. Could there be some weird spacing issue going on?

I just did this adjustment on a friend's bike who has a triple and I got it running smooth as butter so I know I'm capable of making this happen. . .
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 04:47 PM   #9
FastJake
Constant tinkerer
 
FastJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Bikes:
Posts: 7,577
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74;148562[FONT=arial
76]I followed your steps above to the letter and could not for the life of me get the Ultegra FD adjusted so that it will shift up to the big ring. [/FONT]
Is the cable tight in the small ring? There are two reasons it won't shift into the big ring: high limit screw is too far in, or cable isn't tight enough.

Third possible reason would be poor mounting of the FD. But that was explained in detail above.
FastJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 04:59 PM   #10
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The cable is pretty slack in the small ring. Losing my mind over this. Took it to a shop and they couldn't get it set up either. The shifter *appears* to be working normally but I don't know what else could be the problem at this point.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 05:14 PM   #11
ThermionicScott 
Gratuitous glib and snark
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)
Posts: 13,629
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74 View Post
The cable is pretty slack in the small ring.
I think this is the problem. If there's too much slack, then the shifter runs out of cable pull before it can shift to the big ring.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 05:28 PM   #12
CACycling
Senior Member
 
CACycling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Oxnard, CA
Bikes: '08 Fuji Roubaix RC; '07 Schwinn Le Tour GS; '92 Diamond Back Ascent EX
Posts: 4,565
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Step one, pull on the cable for the FD along the down tube (as you would the string on a bow) while pedaling and see if you can move the FD far enough to get the chain on the big ring. If not, either the stop is adjusted to close or the chainrings are sitting too far out. What crankset?
CACycling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 05:32 PM   #13
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,002
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 379 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74 View Post
I followed your steps above to the letter and could not for the life of me get the Ultegra FD adjusted so that it will shift up to the big ring.
....Could there be some weird spacing issue going on?

.
Take a moment and measure the chainline offset. The easiest way and accurate enough for these purposes is to put a ruler against the inside face of the outer ring, and eyeball where it passes the center of the down tube. Subtract 2mmfor a double and 5mm for a triple.

The distance should be between 43 and 45mm, or at least close to that. (there's some fudge room). If the chainline is too far outboard, many modern FDs simply won't reach. Your bike is especially sensitive to an outboard chainline because it's 1-1/8" tubing has the FD starting out more inboard than bikes with fatter tubes would.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 06:57 PM   #14
FastJake
Constant tinkerer
 
FastJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Bikes:
Posts: 7,577
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74 View Post
The cable is pretty slack in the small ring. Losing my mind over this. Took it to a shop and they couldn't get it set up either. The shifter *appears* to be working normally but I don't know what else could be the problem at this point.
1. Don't go to that shop again. If they can't set a FD, they shouldn't be working on anything...

2. Tighten the cable. If the cable isn't tight enough the shifter can't pull the FD over far enough. You can verify this by shifting the FD "manually" with your hand to get the chain onto the big ring.
FastJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-12, 07:56 PM   #15
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,002
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 379 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74 View Post
Turning the high adjustment screw does not appear to be moving the FD at all and I don't know why that would be.

....
I hear this all the time and is shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how limit screws work. The upper limit doesn't move the FD, it just controls how far it can move, if something else (the cable) moves it.

Imagine you're parked facing uphill between two cars. The cars determine how far you can move. If you give it gas you can pull up to the uphill car, or you can coast down hill until your on the bumper of the lower car. The cars don't move you, but if they move, your freedom of movement changes.

That's the FD, the cage is the middle car, changing the limits doesn't change anything, but changes how far the cable can move it.

Before going farther test the limits, moving the FD by pulling in the cable directly, drawing it away from the down tube like a bow sting. If it can't shift this way, with the limit all the way out, then the chainrings are too far away. Otherwise, set both limits this way, then adjust the cable elngth so the cage position corresponds correctly to the lever position.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-12, 07:40 AM   #16
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks, FB and FastJake. When I shift it "manually" as you describe it gets up there with no problem.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-12, 07:52 AM   #17
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CACycling View Post
Step one, pull on the cable for the FD along the down tube (as you would the string on a bow) while pedaling and see if you can move the FD far enough to get the chain on the big ring. If not, either the stop is adjusted to close or the chainrings are sitting too far out. What crankset?
It's an FSA Gossamer crankset with the BB30 adapters. Shifts fine when I do it "manually" as you describe.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-12, 07:55 AM   #18
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Take a moment and measure the chainline offset. The easiest way and accurate enough for these purposes is to put a ruler against the inside face of the outer ring, and eyeball where it passes the center of the down tube. Subtract 2mmfor a double and 5mm for a triple.

The distance should be between 43 and 45mm, or at least close to that. (there's some fudge room). If the chainline is too far outboard, many modern FDs simply won't reach. Your bike is especially sensitive to an outboard chainline because it's 1-1/8" tubing has the FD starting out more inboard than bikes with fatter tubes would.
I'm measuring 45mm, thanks for the tip.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-12, 08:03 AM   #19
bklyn74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
bklyn74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Bikes: 2011 Cannondale CAAD 10, Moser "Special", RIP- early/mid 90's Zullo "Sprint" (ultegra grouppo, stronglight crankset), 04 Bianchi Pista (stock except for the saddle, front break and pedals)
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Finally got it. I adjusted the high limit while doing the "manual" pull-on-the-cable shift and increased the cable tension. Thank you all so much for your help. Crisis averted.
bklyn74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-12, 08:39 AM   #20
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,002
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 379 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn74 View Post
Thanks, FB and FastJake. When I shift it "manually" as you describe it gets up there with no problem.
Then it's a straightforward cable adjustment problem. This might be easier for you if you added an inline adjuster into the system. It would allow you to fine tune trim the same way you do on the RD.

Without an inline adjuster, here's a trick that will help you pull more slack out of the cable. Shift to high and put a pencil into the mechanism then shift back to low and you should be able to pull out more slack. Tighten the pinch bolt slowly, and ease the pencil out. If the FD doesn'r go all the way in, ease off the pinch bolt and let some wire slide through as the spring returns the FD to low. Tighten the pinch bolt and test for shifting and trim.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-12, 06:34 PM   #21
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Here's a cable-tension adjustment procedure I've found that works well on the bike-stand:
1. Loosen outer limit screw until it almost falls out

2. Shift up into big-ring while spinning crank by pulling on lever or by manually pushing the FD out with your hand.

3. When the chain is fully engaged on big-ring, stop pedaling and let go of everything. If you've done the #1 most important step from the Park Tool guide properly, the chain & chainring will hold the FD in an outward position.

4. Push lever all the way to the smallest-ring/least-tension position. There should be plenty of slack now since the FD is held in an outward position by the chain & chainring.

5. loosen cable pinch-bolt and pull through 1-2mm of cable so. Tighten pinch-bolt

6. Pull lever back out and spin the crank to settle things. Test shifting up & down. Repeat back at #2 as necessary to pull through or release cable as necessary to shift up & down between chainrings.

7. tighten outer limit-screw just enough so you don't shift the chain off the outside.

I find that zero slack or slight cable-tension with the shift-lever in the inner-most position with the inner limit-screw removed works well. The shift-lever position and cable-tension determines the inner-most position of the FD and since the cable has zero slack, as soon as you move the lever, the FD moves as well for maximum sweep-distance for the lever-travel.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:53 PM.