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Old 09-28-12, 11:22 AM   #1
Pinkelephant64
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need tough touring wheels for Miyata 610 (done and ordered, thx)

I'm rebuilding my Miyata 610 and converting to 700c.
I grew up on 20" bikes so my front wheel spends a lot of time in the air and I like to trail ride
I need tough wheels under or around $350 I guess. I'm setting it up for touring but it will spend most of it's time on rural country roads around home
I'm looking at these:
http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com.../prod_156.html

the shop streached my frame to 130mm to accept modern hubs. What hubs listed on the above link do I want or what other wheel options should I consider?

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Old 09-28-12, 11:51 AM   #2
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most any 36 hole hub is fine.. 2 paths . go with premium parts ..

or go with Adequate parts .. sub 105 hub will roll well enough .
if you have wheel damage, mid tour, you can get the wheel the shop has in stock
And wont be an issue in abandoning the bent up wheel's hub..

High summer touring season most shop's wont have time,
to drop everything and hand build you a wheel.
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Old 09-28-12, 12:07 PM   #3
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so the 105 hub is a quality choice??
there are 105 options on the above link. what 105 hubs do i want for a Miyata that had 27" wheels?
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Old 09-28-12, 12:17 PM   #4
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so the 105 hub is a quality choice??
there are 105 options on the above link. what 105 hubs do i want for a Miyata that had 27" wheels?
105's are fine hubs and you won't go wrong using them. Hub life is measured in tens or thousands of miles, so they should be good for a few laps around the world with some basic maintenance.

As for compatibility, the hub doesn't care what rim you use as long as it has the same number of holes. If you want durable long lived wheels, shop for ones built with DB spokes, which are well worth the cost difference.
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Old 09-28-12, 12:17 PM   #5
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you may consider better sealed MTB hubs, in a modified OLD to be the 130 rather than 135.
easy to do, just a 5mm thick spacer on the left side is removed, wheel re dished

even the hubs coming on $400 bikes will be OK./.

the hub choice has no influence on the rim size. that is a separate choice..

It is the brakes that have to lower the shoes about 4mm to meet the rim for braking.
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Old 09-28-12, 12:47 PM   #6
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Here's a recipe for some really strong wheels:

36-hole 105 or Ultegra hubs (re-spacing MTB hubs to 130 OLD won't add much over just using good road hubs)
DT or Wheelsmith double-butted spokes
Mavic A719 rims

I've heard good things about Velocity Dyads, too. I use Sun CR-18's on a couple of bikes, for a less-expensive option. Mavic CPX-33's are also said to be bulletproof for a narrower rim.

Not the lightest, but they'll hold up to some abuse. Almost more important than the components is the quality of the build- the spokes need to be evenly and correctly tensioned and properly stress-relieved for a strong wheel.

If you want to use MTB hubs, that would be stronger, but you'll need to cold-set your frame from 126 OLD to 135 OLD. Squeezing a 130 OLD into a 126 OLD frame is no problem, but 135 is too much.

Nothing about wheelies is good for your bike, but larger lower-pressure tires (32-38 mm) would be more comfortable on light trails and gravel.

Last edited by cycle_maven; 09-28-12 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 09-28-12, 01:50 PM   #7
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BWW offer alloy nipples on those wheels, for a premium. I'd suggest you stick with brass for longevity and corrosion resistance.
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Old 09-28-12, 03:40 PM   #8
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Of course no matter what you choose, components are important but the quality of the build is critical.
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Old 09-28-12, 07:45 PM   #9
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Nothing about wheelies is good for your bike, but larger lower-pressure tires (32-38 mm) would be more comfortable on light trails and gravel.
I have a little under 3000 miles on this frame and I got away with some seriously crazy stunts that had the other club members shaking thier heads. the trick to wheelies on high end bikes is pulling up right before the wheel lands so it lands smoothly without even a bump. if it's done right, there is more stress on the back wheel than the front

as I stated on my other thread. I was a bike mechanic at the largest bike shop in Houston but that was 25 years ago. I'm WAY behind the times on this stuff.

If i want a tuff set of wheels for a vintage frame, under $400 online, where do I go. make it simple for the old guy. is the above link a bad idea. if it's not a bad idea, what hubs do i pick from that page?
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Old 09-29-12, 05:32 AM   #10
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I don't see anything wrong with going for those wheels, and you already have folks that have said the 105's are fine (I agree). Which hub on that page is a matter of your color pref, as 36 hole is going to be the "toughest."
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Old 09-29-12, 06:24 AM   #11
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as I stated on my other thread. I was a bike mechanic at the largest bike shop in Houston but that was 25 years ago. I'm WAY behind the times on this stuff.

If i want a tuff set of wheels for a vintage frame, under $400 online, where do I go. make it simple for the old guy. is the above link a bad idea. if it's not a bad idea, what hubs do i pick from that page?
Let me guess which shop, close to the Medical Center? I don't know anything about Pure rims, but all else looks to be more than adequate and Bicycle Wheels Warehouse has a good reputation.

Brad
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Old 09-29-12, 07:12 AM   #12
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My LBS built a set of touring wheels for me this summer. Four-cross with 36-double butted spokes, Salsa Delgado rims, and Deore LX hubs. I considered going to XT hubs but they only could get them in a disk version in black. The rest of my bike has brushed aluminum fittings and it is a v-brake setup, so I opted for the LX hubs which also saved a couple $ without a significant downgrade. Cost me right around $400 for the set and they installed them and gave me a free true and check after a couple hundred miles (they were still in virtually perfect true and have stayed there for the 1,000+ miles since). I have 25mm Specialized All Condition Armadillos on there now, but will replace with 28s when these wear out. The new wheels look great and I was surprised how much they reduced the road vibration. They feel very solid even when loaded down with my 220 lbs and gear. Tad on the heavy side but worth it for the comfort and durability.
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Old 09-29-12, 12:22 PM   #13
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Well I had a moment of insanity at the bike shop.
I showed him the link above and he had a better plan. He quoted a $460 set of wheels and then went about selling me on the idea. I decided to go for it. I ordered the rear wheel today for $275

All silver parts:
A velo orange 130mm hub:
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.p...aring-hub.html
DT swiss 14ga spokes
3x lacing on rear and 2x lacing on front
DT brass nipples
Velocity Dyad 700c Rim:
http://www.modernbike.com/itemgroup....FWaoPAodGlUAzg

I will paste this on the original thread and continue build over there. thx
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Old 09-29-12, 01:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
Here's a recipe for some really strong wheels:

36-hole 105 or Ultegra hubs (re-spacing MTB hubs to 130 OLD won't add much over just using good road hubs)
DT or Wheelsmith double-butted spokes
Mavic A719 rims

I've heard good things about Velocity Dyads, too. I use Sun CR-18's on a couple of bikes, for a less-expensive option. Mavic CPX-33's are also said to be bulletproof for a narrower rim.

Not the lightest, but they'll hold up to some abuse. Almost more important than the components is the quality of the build- the spokes need to be evenly and correctly tensioned and properly stress-relieved for a strong wheel.

If you want to use MTB hubs, that would be stronger, but you'll need to cold-set your frame from 126 OLD to 135 OLD. Squeezing a 130 OLD into a 126 OLD frame is no problem, but 135 is too much.

Nothing about wheelies is good for your bike, but larger lower-pressure tires (32-38 mm) would be more comfortable on light trails and gravel.
FWIW, if you want a tough narrow rim, DT Swiss RR-585s are hard to beat.

They're also at least 100-120g heavier than Mavic CXP-33s.
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Old 09-29-12, 01:26 PM   #15
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Let me guess which shop, close to the Medical Center? I don't know anything about Pure rims, but all else looks to be more than adequate and Bicycle Wheels Warehouse has a good reputation.

Brad
Daniel Boone Cycles.
in 85, the cheapest bike they had was $300 and we were pumping out $4000 mountain bikes as fast as we could build them. My back room job was unboxing new bikes, repacking all the bearings with marine lube and assembling the bikes. There were 3 of us in the back pumping out bikes. The entire bike store I'm working with now would fit in the shop at Daniel Boone's. I talked to Daniel Boone's on the phone about 10 years ago to see if they would help on this rebuild and they wanted nothing to do with an online customer. Even when I said my mom could go stand at the counter whenever I needed to pay for something.

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Old 09-30-12, 01:24 AM   #16
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You do the type of riding I did when I left for university. Up until 6-months before that, I had only ridden BMX bikes and abused them extensively; breaking frames, wheels and cranks were normal events. I got the road-racing bug and had starting seriously training for juniors events. Alas, too little too late and I had to go off to university.

So I got MTB for riding around campus. I didn't realize how much more fragile they were than BMX bikes. I broke 2 sets of wheels within a month. A third custom-built set cost me 3x as much as the bike and was guaranteed by the shop to survive WWIII. Well, they did last twice as long as the previous sets for a whole 4 weeks. That's when I got a job at a bike-shop to pay for school and to get good deal on parts. Little did I know I would be working there for the next 10-years. I finally built a set of wheels that lasted for years.

Now fast forward a couple of decades. For the past 5-years I've been building up wheels for some tandem couples my wife and I ride with. It was like history repeating itself all over again. They went through multiple iterations of stock wheels, off-the-shelf aftermarket wheels, multiple custom-built sets. The best designs eventually evolved to be very similar to BMX wheels:
1. first hubs. They don't make as big a difference in wheel-performance or strength as many people think. They are a low-rpm device, so ball-bearings or cartridge grade-000 bearings won't make much of a difference. Flange-design, hole-drilling and chamfering is more important.

2. spokes makes a bigger difference. Using butted spokes actually makes for a more durable wheel. What happens is they stretch more for a given tension than straight-gauge spokes. When the wheel hits a big bump, it compresses the rim inwards and this loosens the spokes. A straight-gauge spoke will lose ALL tension sooner than a double-gauge spoke for the same rim-deflection. When the spoke looses all tension, this allows the nipple to rattle and work themselves loose. Since a bump impact is a short event, only a couple of spokes loose tension and only a nipple or two will rattle loose a tiny bit. Over time, this random uneven loosening causes the wheel to go out of true. Butted spokes don't lose as much tension and keeps the nipples in place for more durability over the same bumpy roads.

3. the RIM makes the biggest difference in wheel durability. The best ones I've found for hardcore MTB riding, like bombing down several flights of stairs, tabletops and 8-9 ft drop-offs, have been wide box-section rims. They are more vertically compliant than V-section aero rims for better shock-absorption. You also want as much material in the lateral direction as possible for ridigity and box-section rims gives you TWO wide layers in the lateral direction. The best rim that I've found that holds up better than the Dyads and A719s has been the Sun Rhyno Lite. It'll easily outlast them by 2x under the same abuse. I went cross-country on them decades ago and they are the only ones on my tandem that has lasted. They're also the widest available to take the 35-38mm tyres which your 610 can handle. You'll want the fattest tyres possible to run the lowest pressures possible for impact absorption (lowest peak G-forces).
So I recommend:
hub: 40h anything that'll let you use the following spokes, on tandems I use 48h like BMX bikes

spokes: DT Alpine-III triple-butted spokes, 2.3mm at the head, 1.8mm in the middle and 2.0mm at the rim. The rolled threads on the end of a straight or double-butted spoke is actually wider than the head-end of the spoke. This means the bent head of the spoke doesn't fit as tightly into the hub-flange hole as possible and fatigues earlier than necessary. Having a fat diameter at the head to snuggly fit into the flange hole gives the strongest fatigue resistance (most common source of spoke failures).

rim: Sun Rhyno Lite, nicely designed and manufactured rim with eyelets
Also be sure to use a tensionometer to bring the spokes to the upper-end of the tension-range recommended by the rim-manufacturer. Low-tension makes for a less-durable wheel that goes out of true easier and the spokes will fatigue and snap faster as well. Most wheels coming out of a bike-box are at only 50% of optimum tension. Even mail-ordered custom wheels are seldom at 75% or more.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 09-30-12 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 09-30-12, 08:01 AM   #17
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The above post has excellent info, and I especially agree on box section rims and the earlier suggestion of 32-38mm tires, but I would not recommend a 40 hole hub/rim for true touring (multi-day trips) especially if you are not in areas where there are large cities and definitely not overseas. If you have a problem with a hub or rim a 40 hole replacement is 10x more difficult to source. A well built 36 hole wheel will be more than adequate for a single rider in my opinion and experience.

I have done around 15,000 miles of touring, at least half of it fully loaded with tent, etc. all of it on 36 hole wheels, and in that time I did not break a single spoke or have to do much wheel maintenance. With modern building knowledge of proper tension, properly designed hubs, and high quality double-butted spokes I don't believe that a non-tandem road bike would require more than a 36 hole hub, with the possible exception of expedition style touring - high miles, very high weight, very poor roads.

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Old 09-30-12, 10:25 AM   #18
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I am learning by the day. thanks everyone.
I think my current order is tougher that I require but they won't last forever.
I was looking at the lower end dynamo front hubs yesterday online (shimano, $160) and changed my mind. With current LED tech, I see no need for dynamos anymore
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Old 09-30-12, 10:32 AM   #19
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i had forgotten that you had already committed to a build with your LBS, though I must say I have found the V section rims are not as stable as box section. It's very important to get proper tension, as I have seen deep section rims loosen spokes if not sufficiently tensioned. The 19mm inside rim width should allow a good range of appropriate tire widths for your usage.

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