ejapplegate

Short question: is it worth the effort to overhaul the bottom bracket of an old (1986) Azuki road bike, or leave well enough alone?

Context:

Three years ago I bought a used road bike off craigslist. I believe it to be a 1986 Azuki Imperial, with what seems to be orginal components and parts. I swapped out the 5 speed freewheel for a 6 speed (also a Suntour freewheel), and have changed the small chain ring to a 36 for some extra help on hills. It has held up well, and I have really enjoyed riding it.

This winter, I am trying my hand at some maintenance. I am replacing both the brake and gear cables (both a bit frayed), swapping in some aero brake levers, and putting in a longer stem (the orginal was 50mm, a bit short for me).

I have taken everything (except the cranks) off of the frame to clean it up. I bought a cone wrench, and have just starting to overhaul the front hub. So far so good.

Now I am questioning if I should go ahead and deal with the bottom bracket. It spins smoothly, no bumps, clunks, or issues. Although, if I strain my ears, it does sound like there is some grating inside when I turn the cranks, like a tiny bit of sand or something. Then again, it could be my hearing.

In order to open up the bottom bracket, I would have to buy a crank puller tool, along with the necessary wrench to open up the bottom bracket. I could also take it into a LBS and ask them to overhaul the bottom bracket, but I am really trying to minimize any further expense (what do we call buying N+1 tool?)

Or should I just do the maintenance I had planned, put everything back together, and ride it until I feel there is really something wrong?

Thoughtful advice appreciated.

Airburst

Well, if it's an old bike, the grease in the bearings will probably have degraded considerably, so it's not a bad idea to service it. The tools may well come in handy again if you're willing to buy them, and they aren't that expensive.

temon00

I would say 100% worth it. Your bike is over 25 years old, and has probably never had the BB serviced. You can get a good enough crank puller for $10, and don't worry about a BB lockring tool unless you're going to be doing a lot of these. I got mine for $12, and it's easier to get good purchase on the lockring, but not an absolute necessity. A monkey wrench works pretty well - the key is to use even pressure so the tool doesn't strip the notch. May require PB blaster. After that, a servicing a bottom bracket is smooth sailing. You may find that your bearings have lost their finish or the races on the inside of the cup are pock marked, in which case they should be replaced. Clean out the gunk, get some good lube in there, and you'll thank yourself later.

rumrunn6

do it, or have a pro do it. no shame, no judgement.

have you put new wheels on it? replaced the bearings and cones front and rear? inspected, cleaned and re-greased at least?

ejapplegate

The tires had been replaced before I purchased it; they still had the little nubs attached (I had a tube blow out this past summer, but I replaced it no problem).

I am in the middle of overhauling the hubs. I just took apart and cleaned the fron hub. The grease was in pretty bad shape, but once I got things clean, the bearings, cups, and cones look okay. There seems to be a track around the cup, but it is smooth and perfectly circular. I plan on overhauling the rear hub this weekend.

BTW, the hubs are marked as Shimano (I think 600).

dsbrantjr

Servicing the bottom bracket is easy and well worth doing. While you have it open (the hubs, too) you may as well replace the bearing balls. They are cheap and you will have no need to be concerned about the condition of the old ones. If the old ones are in cages you can either change them out and re-use the cages (easier to assemble) or throw out the cages and fill the races with a couple more balls, but don't overfill them. There are resources online which will help you to accomplish this. Just keep track of which size goes in which location.

fietsbob

Buy the tools for DIY, or hire the work done , if your time is worth more to do the job slowly,
than the shop can, quickly..

pierce

that old bike likely has loose balls and cones in its bottom bracket, like this (disassembled) one...




usually, if I have to take one of these apart, I'll end up replacing it with an inexpensive Shimano UN55/56 with the right axle length. $12-20 online, maybe $30 at a LBS.

you'll certainly need a crank puller to get the cranks off, I managed to get that old BB out of the frame just using what I had available (big spanner, etc), and I bought the inexpensive shimano BB tool required to install the UN55 stuff. if I had chosen to rebuild that vintage BB, I'd have had to get some vintage tools suitable for it, specifically, a pin wrench for the adjustable cup, and a notch spanner (name?) for the lock ring.

here's another pic showing the other side of the cups...


(this BB was sitting between these lovely vintage Specialized cranks...)

jyl

Yes, definitely worth overhauling, if you plan to keep the bike. The grease in the bottom bracket is just as badly off as the grease in the hubs.

However, bottom brackets can sometimes be hard to remove, if corrosion has done its worst. If you run into stuck bits, stop and think, maybe come ask here, before getting frustrated or damaging something.

For example, on the bike I'm working on now, the fixed cup doesn't want to come out. I'm cleaning and regreasing it in place. On a previous bike this year, the adjustable cup wouldn't come out. Left that one in place and used thin shims under the fixed cup to adjust the bearing.

Not trying to dissuade you - most likely you'll have smooth sailing.

ThermionicScott 

Those *are* pretty cranks, probably rebranded Suginos.

I think that learning how to overhaul cup-and-cone bottom brackets is a worthwhile endeavor. The technology is obsolete and messy, but it's rewarding to get these bottom brackets adjusted just right and running smooth. And as long as 1/4" bearing balls stay in production, this type can be kept running indefinitely with routine maintenance.

pierce

re hard to remove cups.... the auto repair folks use this wonderful stuff called Kroil. There is an aerosol version, Aero-Kroil. You should be able to find it at a /good/ auto parts store, but probably not a bigbox chain. its an awesome penetrating oil, makes Liquid Wrench look like a joke. anyways, a little dribble of this stuff on whatever side of a fastener you can access, and let it sit for an hour, and you'd be amazed at what you formerly thought was permanently stuck comes off cleanly. Plan B is, use a hot air gun on the BB shell, and freeze-mist on the inside piece thats not coming out, and while there's still a good temperature differential (hot outer piece, cold inner one), try again with the wrench.


re: cranks, yes, almost certainly Suginos. they were track style, with the 144mm bolt circle, so a 42mm ring was about as small as you could go. I ended up putting an older Ultegra in its place, with 53-39 rings, on my son's vintage Trek roadie.

temon00

Cleaning the bearings in a cup and spindle bottom bracket should take about 20 minutes, right? Not sure about the time savings angle...

ejapplegate

Re: Cranks:

Yes, these say Sugino, and also are labeled MAXY. I believe the BCD is 110mm, as this is what I bought when I sourced the 36T small chain ring.

pierce

to adjust one like is shown in my pictures above, you want this tool

https://www.parktool.com/product/adju...-spanner-spa-6


and one of these depending on the lockring notch count...

https://www.parktool.com/product/cran...t-wrench-hcw-5


https://www.parktool.com/product/cran...t-wrench-hcw-4




if instead you go for the Shimano UNxx square shaft sealed BB, you need one of these to install them...
https://www.parktool.com/product/bott...et-tool-bbt-22


I find if you bring the bike with the chain and crankset already removed to a friendly LBS, they'll usually pop out and/or install a BB for a pittance, quite often while you wait. its pretty hard to justify a bunch of specialty tools you only use once in a long while. Me, I got the crank puller, and the last tool above as I've used them a dozen times or more...

Burton

Based on the age of the bike - I'd have a shop do it the first time. Reason being the work is normally a fixed price and if anything is seized or worn - home mechanic's tools won't do the job. I'm thinking in particular about the fixed cup. At our shop labor costs are a flat $10. Once its been confirmed that everything is OK, you can probably do anybfurther tensioning on the non-drive side yourself. At that point you'll already have confirmed the bearings and cones are in good condition, or have had them replaced. 'Upgrading' to a cartridge style BB is another option and they are usually better sealed against water infiltration.

Taking it to a shop may avoid having to buy something like this: https://www.bikesonline.com/hozan-cup...oving-tool.htm

onespeedbiker

First I have been wrenching bikes for the better part of 30 years and I've yet had the need for a $125 bottom bracket remover. The two middle tools above in post#14 should do it or a vice works even better. All these tools and more can be found at a Jew Jersey co-op and there will be plenty of help if the OP gets stuck. Remember the OP wants to learn how to work on his bike and routine bottom bracket maintenance is right up there with a need to know..

pierce

again,, I'd get and use some Kroil. just a few drops is all it takes. a can of it will last nearly forever.

bradtx

ejapplegate, If it's a bike you like, it's worth the thorough service. The bottom bracket, while requiring some special tools is no more difficult than the hubs. If the cones or races are worn the UN 54 or UN 55 bottom bracket is a good replacement.

Brad

ejapplegate

Thanks for all of the advice. I have just ordered a crank puller and a bottom bracket wrench. Once I get it open, I will see if a simple cleaning and re-greasing will suffice, or if I need a replacement.

While the bike is old (and truth be told not terribly unique or a collectors item), I do like it very much. Also, it is all I can afford at the moment, so I may as well like it.

Burton

I was thinking that he mentioned he wanted to keep the bike and probably the original BB if possible. If you've been wrenching for 30 years and never needed one of those its probably a combination of good luck and you living in CA. The OP lives in NJ, a lot closer to where I live here in Montreal. Here winter and seized BB's are pretty common - even if just from condensation from being stored outside in a shed.

So both the shops I work at are equipped with those. A couple of the tools are probably well over 30 years old, have seen a lot of use before I showed up, and I use them myself regularly. And on a few rare ocassions - that doesn't do the trick either and the BB has to be cut out with a dremel. A few shops here resort to a torch, which ruins the paint and heat treatment, and some just sell the client a new frame - or bike. We all have different experiences - here $10 to remove a BB may be a much better deal than where you are.

Chris Chicago

Sometimes those fixed cups come out easy with just a big adj wrench. But others are a beyatch and 10 bucks is a great deal.

onespeedbiker

Well I did mention that if the OP gets in over his head than the LBS is the place to go. I do question the $10 quote you offered up. Here in California most the shops charge $40 @ hour with a 1/2 hr minimum. Also, the tool you are offering up does not look like is is designed for stuck BB as the T- turning rod looks to bee about 6-8 inched long, certainly not enough leverage to unscrew a stuck fixed cup. I use a closed end wrench similar to the HCW4, but I cut off the other end and have a few lengths beaker bar that I put over the end for leverage. Saying all this I agree that removing a seized fix cup might be more than the OP can handle, but lets cross the bridge if we come to it. For now I say, here are the tools, this is how you do it, go for it

Burton

No problem - just for info - the bar on the units at the shop are closer to 18 inches across, and the tool comes with a reversable slug to fit two different sizes of fixed cups. Ocassionally it takes a smack with a ru ber mallet to persuade a reluctant BB to move, and its an operation that isn't done in the work stand as we're talking considerabe force. The big plus is that it leaves the fixed cup completely unmarked as there are zero chances of slip.

As a comparison, rates here run closer to $60/hr but there's no minimum charge and for most tasks there's a flat rate very similar to the automotive industry. Rates are posted as it makes initial estimates very easy to explain to a customer when a bike is brought in. And anyone that brings in an older bike in excellent condition gets special treatment anyway - I think everyone likes a nice classic ride!

frantik

yes it's worth it especially if you're overhauling everything else

pay the LBS for the tools, do the labor yourself

replacing with a cartridge BB is another option but that costs money and typically means throwing out perfectly serviceable parts

zacster

If there's a bike coop nearby use the tools there. I know there are a few in NYC, but I don't know if you are in north or south Jersey. Or you could always try to borrow them.

I have a set that I bought in the 80s, and have used them maybe 3 times. I'm not sure they were a good investment, although far from an expensive item. I used them once or twice when they were relatively new, and then about 2 years ago I rebuilt my Zeus BB when what I really wanted to do was replace it with a sealed cartridge Campy. I couldn't get the fixed cup off. After the rebuild I found the BB to be as good as new and have used it ever since.