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Thread: wimping out

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    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    wimping out

    have come to the conclusion that life would be better with a triple ring crankset. we're talking about a +/- 1984 De Rosa frame, and a couple of cartons of odd campy stuff to start with. and lots of long steep hills to be made with a pair of skinny old legs.

    current parts on hand include a braze-on chorus FD--which appears to have enough lateral movement to cover three rings--not sure about up and down movement. also on hand is a nuovo record (pattern 83) RD, which I know is not meant for a long chain. lastly, there is a nice super record (says 170 STRADA 0 on the crank arm) which could go right to eBay if any of this idea makes sense.

    other relevant info: 126mm rear axle spacing, campy hub with 5 speed FW...and a vintage campy BB in decent condition

    So, if this is feasible, what parts could be used, what needs to be purchased, and what goes to eBay?

    THANKS in advance and HAPPY NEW YEAR

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    I get you. I climbed alpine passes (loaded) with my 47/29 low gear. But that was when I was in my late teens. Sadly the hydraulics are shot, and out of warranty, so my days of climbing that way are gone. I'm not too proud to use a granny now.

    Some companies make an adapter chinring, sometimes called a triplizer which replaces the inner ring, and has extensions allowing the attachment of a granny smaller than the bolt circle. This would allow you to have what I now tour with, a road double with a bailout (wimpout) granny. I find this an ideal arrangement because it allows the utility of my road combinations which I use 99% of the time, yet the option of the granny for walls, and long steep grades.

    The only issue may be your bolt circle, I don't know if they triplizers are made for Campy anymore.

    As for the FD, I found I was covered with my old Record FD, but my granny is 32t. Going smaller may require a triple specific or mtb derailleur. It's easy to estimate how much smaller a chainring your FD will accommodate. Shift to the inner and a small to mid rear sprocket. Measure the vertical clearance between the FD cage and chain. Allow 1/6" for every 2 teeth you plan to go smaller.

    BTW- if you can't find a triplizer combo that works for you and opt to replace the crankset, consider a compact drive, or mtb cankset. This will involve some sacrifice of the highest gear or two, which you probably don't use that much anyway. OTOH, either is much more adaptable to a and climbing gear range.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 12-30-12 at 06:10 PM.
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  3. #3
    Andrew R Stewart Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
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    The usual process to consider lower gears starts with the rear cogs. Then goes to the rings if there's not enough change from the rear only.

    Questions- What's the current gearing, tooth counts? How much lower do you want to go? Do you wish to keep as much Campy as possible? If so how does this preference balance against your want for lower gears?

    How these questions are answered will guide the choices.

    I'd suggest that you consider moving away from the Campy you have (at least on the bike, what's in the box??). Campy NR has never shifted as well as more recent designs and has limited gear range, even with the tricks and such that can be played with. If you move to a triple crank then the BB will go too. Even with better shifting gears the racing nature of the frame has it's aspect. Expect some chain rub in near crossover cog combos. The likelihood of Italian BB shell will make the BB replacement a touch more challenging to get. The ft der is likely a double caged version. This will hinder a triple shifting and ring diameter range. The braze on aspect is less likely to be a problem. The 126mm rear end could handle a 6 speed FW or an older cassette hub. This frame could be stretched to a 130mm which would open up a lot of current gearing options.

    Figure out what to do with the bike before dealing with the left over parts. Feel free to ask more but we'll need more data points to be more specific. Andy.

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    S'Cruzer pierce's Avatar
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    so if that has a campy crankset, its probably an ISO bottom bracket? that makes things more difficult, or I was going to suggest a touring triple like the newer Stronglight.

    I saw a retro crankset for touring that had like 53-44 or something main rings, and then a tiny granny (30T?) for those monster hills. can't find it now, but I think it was some old name like Stronglight.

  5. #5
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    The usual process to consider lower gears starts with the rear cogs. Then goes to the rings if there's not enough change from the rear only.

    Questions- What's the current gearing, tooth counts? How much lower do you want to go? Do you wish to keep as much Campy as possible? If so how does this preference balance against your want for lower gears?

    REPLY IS BELOW...


    How these questions are answered will guide the choices.

    I'd suggest that you consider moving away from the Campy you have (at least on the bike, what's in the box??). Campy NR has never shifted as well as more recent designs and has limited gear range, even with the tricks and such that can be played with. If you move to a triple crank then the BB will go too. Even with better shifting gears the racing nature of the frame has it's aspect. Expect some chain rub in near crossover cog combos. The likelihood of Italian BB shell will make the BB replacement a touch more challenging to get. The ft der is likely a double caged version. This will hinder a triple shifting and ring diameter range. The braze on aspect is less likely to be a problem. The 126mm rear end could handle a 6 speed FW or an older cassette hub. This frame could be stretched to a 130mm which would open up a lot of current gearing options.

    Figure out what to do with the bike before dealing with the left over parts. Feel free to ask more but we'll need more data points to be more specific. Andy.
    REPLY: THANKS, Andy...current assortment of campy parts includes a 14-24 5sp FW and 42/52 rings. my benchmark is the motobecane I am currently riding which has a 40t inner ring and a 30t cog on the 5sp FW. This is OK when I am feeling good, but a struggle if I have not ridden in a few days. As mentioned before, it's pretty hilly around here, at least for this old greybeard.

  6. #6
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I get you. I climbed alpine passes (loaded) with my 47/29 low gear. But that was when I was in my late teens. Sadly the hydraulics are shot, and out of warranty, so my days of climbing that way are gone. I'm not too proud to use a granny now.

    Some companies make an adapter chinring, sometimes called a triplizer which replaces the inner ring, and has extensions allowing the attachment of a granny smaller than the bolt circle. This would allow you to have what I now tour with, a road double with a bailout (wimpout) granny. I find this an ideal arrangement because it allows the utility of my road combinations which I use 99% of the time, yet the option of the granny for walls, and long steep grades.

    The only issue may be your bolt circle, I don't know if they triplizers are made for Campy anymore.

    As for the FD, I found I was covered with my old Record FD, but my granny is 32t. Going smaller may require a triple specific or mtb derailleur. It's easy to estimate how much smaller a chainring your FD will accommodate. Shift to the inner and a small to mid rear sprocket. Measure the vertical clearance between the FD cage and chain. Allow 1/6" for every 2 teeth you plan to go smaller.

    BTW- if you can't find a triplizer combo that works for you and opt to replace the crankset, consider a compact drive, or mtb cankset. This will involve some sacrifice of the highest gear or two, which you probably don't use that much anyway. OTOH, either is much more adaptable to a and climbing gear range.
    FB--WOW--a triplizer--who knew? I see that is offered here:

    http://www.vintage-trek.com/tripleizer.htm

    following the links takes you back to Sheldon Brown (RIP) territory. If the 3-izer is really available, it appears it would bolt up to my 144 BCD campy crank. I also see some 74 BCD 30t campy rings on eBay, and other 32t in other brands as well. (the 3-izer is described as a replacement inner ring with a small diameter tabs to receive a granny ring)

    the subsequent question would be, is there enough clearance for the Wimpy ring and chain between the triplizer ring and frame--and then, can the FD tuck in that tight.

    final questions would go to chain length and RD capability to handle the slack.

  7. #7
    slow as I ever was Ex Pres's Avatar
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    If you're interested in staying with 80's friction-shift gear, then you can't beat Suntour for that era. I have an '83 Trek I've set up with Cyclone MkII front and MkII GT rear derailleur, some make of Sugino period 110/74BCD crankset 28/44/52 triple front, 6s rear freewheel on a 126 hub (I think I went 12-24, but it would handle more).


    I love my Campy, but this setup will work better for an 80's triple setup; and you could buy the stuff you need for a lot less than you could sell the stuff you don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geezerwheels View Post
    I also see some 74 BCD 30t campy rings on eBay, and other 32t in other brands as well. (the 3-izer is described as a replacement inner ring with a small diameter tabs to receive a granny ring)
    Any make of 74 mm BCD ring can be used a Campy cranks (or a triplizer) that has that bolt circle so there is no need to limit yourself to "Campy" chainrings.

    If you want to stay with Campy components but are willing to buy a more recent crank and bottom bracket, Campy used to sell a triples in most of their lines (Veloce, Centaur, Chorus and Record) and their "Racing Triple" all of which used their older ISO square taper format bottom brackets. You may be able to find these NOS and, in fact, Licktons in Chicago still has the top level Racing Triple crank available:

    http://www.lickbike.com/productpage....B='0071-70'

    Campy also sell current triple cranks using their new "Power Torque" bottom bracket format in the Veloce and Centaur lines. All of these use a 135 mm bcd for the larger rings and a 74 mm bcd for the granny. Cranks are mostly 10-speed spaced so you would want to use a narrower chain with them but the chain will work fine on tour older freewheels or cassette.

  9. #9
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    I like that Campy triple -- keeps with the Campy blood on the rest of the bike, and the 30/24 would be lower than the 40/30 on your Motobecane. If you have trouble finding a chain that works with both the 5-speed block and the "10-speed" crankset (chainrings are generally spaced closer together now), you could pick up chainring spacers to scooch them apart from each other a little when you bolt them on.

    I thought I heard that the TA tripleizer was out of production, but maybe it's one of those things that goes in and out of production with demand.

    Editorially, I think it's unfortunate that popular biking culture looked down on triples (and the people who use them) for so long. Yeah, they weigh a little more and have a wider Q-factor, but it's much healthier to have low gears available when you need them.
    Last edited by ThermionicScott; 12-31-12 at 09:08 AM.
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    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    See

    http://www.stanford.edu/~dru/tripleize.html

    http://www.stanford.edu/~dru/triplecheat.html

    If it was me - I would get the triplizer and install a 30T granny on your existing Campagnolo crank.

    You may have to hunt around for a used triplizer (and try various spellings) but anything is eventually available on eBay. If none is available, Campagnolo triple cranks are all over eBay.

    If you need a longer BB spindle, Campagnolo made 111mm ISO square taper BBs for triples, you can find them on eBay.

    See if the FD and RD work, if not then Campagnolo triple derailleurs are also on eBay for not crazy sums in the mid-grades (Centaur, Veloce, Race Triple). I personally would try to use your existing RD, use a chain long enough to permit big-big without damage, and simply don't ever use small-small (i.e. only shift into the granny when you're already in the biggest cog) - if you can make that work, great.

    In general, I think it would be a shame to be putting Suntour stuff or mountain bike derailleurs on a De Rosa.
    Last edited by jyl; 12-31-12 at 10:30 AM.
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    Jack of all trades anixi's Avatar
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    As an old greybeard myself, I wouldn't consider it wimping out at all. I believe you should consider a 28t freewheel in back, and if possible a lower than 42t in front, if it will fit. It seems to me that you should be able to find a 39t for the front. That just might make it more hill friendly without resorting to a triple, and a big hit money wise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anixi View Post
    As an old greybeard myself, I wouldn't consider it wimping out at all. I believe you should consider a 28t freewheel in back, and if possible a lower than 42t in front, if it will fit. It seems to me that you should be able to find a 39t for the front. That just might make it more hill friendly without resorting to a triple, and a big hit money wise.
    If this is an older Campy crank with a 144 mm BCD, a 42T chainring is the smallest that will fit. The newer 135 mm BCD campy cranks will accept an 39T ring.

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    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Ive got <C> 74 -30t third rings, took them off my Race Triple to fit a 24t instead..

    the period mix I use is a Rally RD for the capacity and chain wrap

    there is also the possibility of a machine shop threading the Crank arm itself, to bolt onto..

    Campagnolo did that themselves for their Triple, a less woos 36t .. [so probably only 2 lower ratios ]

    I used a Gippiemme triple as a wide step Double , set it up as a 52 36.. 52 in the middle chainguard disc outer..

  14. #14
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    See

    http://www.stanford.edu/~dru/tripleize.html

    http://www.stanford.edu/~dru/triplecheat.html

    If it was me - I would get the triplizer and install a 30T granny on your existing Campagnolo crank.

    You may have to hunt around for a used triplizer (and try various spellings) but anything is eventually available on eBay. If none is available, Campagnolo triple cranks are all over eBay.

    If you need a longer BB spindle, Campagnolo made 111mm ISO square taper BBs for triples, you can find them on eBay.
    Turns out the alleged Nuovo Record Strada spindle I have is 115mm. can this handle a stock triple?

    of course I could play it safe and cheap and find a 53/39 with 175mm's and learn to deal with it...

    this goes to how I coach my wife when we approach a long hill: Don't let the *idea* of the hill defeat you. It's ok to have to quit midway and push it to the top, but one should still attack it and do the best you can. with this, she usually makes it.

    IOW's I should take my own advice...

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    Senior Member zandoval's Avatar
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    Slow down a bit - They already figured this out - Compact crank in the front - 34T bailout in the back - May need a long cage derailuer and new chain - But it works - When going 34t to 34t you could be somewhere around 27" chain - Less than that and you may as well put your bike on your shoulder and use you bipedal gear about 24"...

    As an older rider I spend more time in my bailout gear than I would like to admit...

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    slow as I ever was Ex Pres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezerwheels View Post
    Turns out the alleged Nuovo Record Strada spindle I have is 115mm. can this handle a stock triple?

    of course I could play it safe and cheap and find a 53/39 with 175mm's and learn to deal with it...

    this goes to how I coach my wife when we approach a long hill: Don't let the *idea* of the hill defeat you. It's ok to have to quit midway and push it to the top, but one should still attack it and do the best you can. with this, she usually makes it.

    IOW's I should take my own advice...
    115mm was the Italian thread spec for double cranksets post '77. I don't recall the length, but the triple spindles are marked [IIRC] "X3" after the "70-SS" (or something close).
    72 special CNC ___________ 72 Frejus (ala Legnano) __73 Holdsworth Record
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  17. #17
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    thanks all for the great advice--just found a suntour vx-gt that looks like it could handle up to a 32t rear cog (big suntour FW's abound on eBay)

    with a 32 in back and my 42t ring campy super record, i'd be 2% easier than my Motobecane's 30t rear cog and 40t front ring--if it doesn't work out, then I ASSUME I could go down to a 39/53 up front--without changing the FD.

    campy long cages seem to be out there but they are $$$...so please forgive the heresy!

  18. #18
    slow as I ever was Ex Pres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezerwheels View Post
    thanks all for the great advice--just found a suntour vx-gt that looks like it could handle up to a 32t rear cog (big suntour FW's abound on eBay)

    with a 32 in back and my 42t ring campy super record, i'd be 2% easier than my Motobecane's 30t rear cog and 40t front ring--if it doesn't work out, then I ASSUME I could go down to a 39/53 up front--without changing the FD.

    campy long cages seem to be out there but they are $$$...so please forgive the heresy!
    42t is the smallest you'll really find for that 144BCD crank, although 41t do exist, you can have chain issues. Interestingly enough, a fellow on the CR list is developing a 40t ring to fit without spider modifications (40t/5 arm = a nice even number and avoids some 41t issues).
    72 special CNC ___________ 72 Frejus (ala Legnano) __73 Holdsworth Record
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    85 Trek 560______________88 Guerciotti GLX
    90 Miele Gara_____________02 Casati Dardo (g/blue)__02 Casati Dardo (y/blk)
    03 Casati Dardo___________08 BF IRO (fixed)________10 Vassago Fisticuff (IGH)

  19. #19
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
    42t is the smallest you'll really find for that 144BCD crank, although 41t do exist, you can have chain issues. Interestingly enough, a fellow on the CR list is developing a 40t ring to fit without spider modifications (40t/5 arm = a nice even number and avoids some 41t issues).
    Understood--I meant changing the entire crankset...down to a 135 BDC...

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    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    so the 40t, I can see, being a multiple of 5 the bolt can nestle at the base of a tooth,
    and gain some clearance..

    using a nonstandard chainring bolt/nut would also gain some MMs

  21. #21
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    so the De Rosa will have to withstand the dual insults of the suntour winner pro 14/34 and Vx GT--will try this out with the super record FD and 52/42 strada crank...

    again, the advice here on this forum is invaluable!

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    S'Cruzer pierce's Avatar
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    eeek, mixing Campy and Suntour... thats adding insult to injury!!!!




    j/k!

  23. #23
    Senior Member geezerwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pierce View Post
    eeek, mixing Campy and Suntour... thats adding insult to injury!!!!




    j/k!
    not only that, but the frame came with a Tange headset -- which turned out to be brinelled -- and looking at the $200-$300 for a campy head, it might just go back Tange

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    Quote Originally Posted by pierce View Post
    eeek, mixing Campy and Suntour... thats adding insult to injury!!!!




    j/k!
    Down grading from Suntour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geezerwheels View Post
    not only that, but the frame came with a Tange headset -- which turned out to be brinelled -- and looking at the $200-$300 for a campy head, it might just go back Tange
    If you can find a shimano made for 1" steerers buy it. It is a good as a King and a lot cheaper. If you can't, get a King with a 10 year guarentee.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Shimano-...0419%26ps%3D54

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