Questions about derailleurs and shifters - and cassettes
01-03-13, 11:10 AM
#26
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I guess I don't get it. I went to the LBS. First off, the 'stock' wheels aren't available. I've read enough (now) that I know that many OEM parts are not off-the-shelf parts from the manufacturers. Like the stock derailleurs on my bike. They aren't part of the normally available groups. I get that now. I have a $700 bike.
When I asked about upgrading to a better derailleur set, they all just kinda looked at me. It was then it finally hit home that it's a cheap bike (to them). You don't go around upgrading the cheap stuff. There were so many ummms and I don't knows that I caught on. They did finally, after two hours, come up with a set of wheels that would fit for $165 without rotors or cassette.
I then spoke to another shop, one where there's a bit more emphasis on fixing than selling and he said it straight out - it's not worth it. OK.
So I had them swap out my tires. With the money I've saved in all that, I'll find a good, used road bike. I know I've been saying that for the past couple of posts, but I was really hoping walking in and talking face-to-face would result in something different.
When I asked about upgrading to a better derailleur set, they all just kinda looked at me. It was then it finally hit home that it's a cheap bike (to them). You don't go around upgrading the cheap stuff. There were so many ummms and I don't knows that I caught on. They did finally, after two hours, come up with a set of wheels that would fit for $165 without rotors or cassette.
I then spoke to another shop, one where there's a bit more emphasis on fixing than selling and he said it straight out - it's not worth it. OK.
So I had them swap out my tires. With the money I've saved in all that, I'll find a good, used road bike. I know I've been saying that for the past couple of posts, but I was really hoping walking in and talking face-to-face would result in something different.
A shop providing a bit of a heads-up to what you're trying to do is fitting, but failing to provide compatible parts is just poor skills/attitude.
Maybe you had a valid, albeit unusual reason for wanting it that way - like wanting a fairly inexpensive frame to reduce risk of theft(and the loss if it'd still would happen) and yet needing a performance drivetrain that would allow a power shift in the middle of a climb or an intersection w/o stuttering.
Although they may be forgiven for not being able to provide the exact duplicates for reasons already stated.
Keep in mind though that an all-out road bike is a fairly specialised animal. They're the pedal bike equivalent of a chopper with shoulder high bars, or maybe an all-out MotoGP bike.
The hunched over position offered by the drop bars isn't for everyone, at least not straight off. Just have a look at this site at all the threads about "drop bar to flat bar conversions", and all the various threads about how to raise bar height, shortening reach and such. A flat bar road bike, or a rigid fork hybrid might be a happier medium for you.
01-03-13, 01:08 PM
#27
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Keep in mind though that an all-out road bike is a fairly specialised animal. They're the pedal bike equivalent of a chopper with shoulder high bars, or maybe an all-out MotoGP bike.
The hunched over position offered by the drop bars isn't for everyone, at least not straight off. Just have a look at this site at all the threads about "drop bar to flat bar conversions", and all the various threads about how to raise bar height, shortening reach and such. A flat bar road bike, or a rigid fork hybrid might be a happier medium for you.
The hunched over position offered by the drop bars isn't for everyone, at least not straight off. Just have a look at this site at all the threads about "drop bar to flat bar conversions", and all the various threads about how to raise bar height, shortening reach and such. A flat bar road bike, or a rigid fork hybrid might be a happier medium for you.
) but with limited trunk space and a relatively low utility value. It's quite acceptable as a daily driver but not what you want for the family vacation or to bring stuff home from Home Depot.
01-03-13, 11:13 PM
#28
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I guess I don't get it. I went to the LBS. First off, the 'stock' wheels aren't available. I've read enough (now) that I know that many OEM parts are not off-the-shelf parts from the manufacturers. Like the stock derailleurs on my bike. They aren't part of the normally available groups. I get that now. I have a $700 bike.
When I asked about upgrading to a better derailleur set, they all just kinda looked at me. It was then it finally hit home that it's a cheap bike (to them). You don't go around upgrading the cheap stuff. There were so many ummms and I don't knows that I caught on. They did finally, after two hours, come up with a set of wheels that would fit for $165 without rotors or cassette.
I then spoke to another shop, one where there's a bit more emphasis on fixing than selling and he said it straight out - it's not worth it. OK.
So I had them swap out my tires. With the money I've saved in all that, I'll find a good, used road bike. I know I've been saying that for the past couple of posts, but I was really hoping walking in and talking face-to-face would result in something different.
When I asked about upgrading to a better derailleur set, they all just kinda looked at me. It was then it finally hit home that it's a cheap bike (to them). You don't go around upgrading the cheap stuff. There were so many ummms and I don't knows that I caught on. They did finally, after two hours, come up with a set of wheels that would fit for $165 without rotors or cassette.
I then spoke to another shop, one where there's a bit more emphasis on fixing than selling and he said it straight out - it's not worth it. OK.
So I had them swap out my tires. With the money I've saved in all that, I'll find a good, used road bike. I know I've been saying that for the past couple of posts, but I was really hoping walking in and talking face-to-face would result in something different.
(1) A $700 hybrid isn't a 'cheap' hybrid.
(2) ANY bike (regardless of price) will be more expensive if bought in parts.
(3) Upgrading the people you deal with can have a tremendously positive impact on your bicycle.
Hang in there!
01-03-13, 11:44 PM
#29
S'Cruzer
much like people who bolt performance add-ons under the hood of their car, its up to the buyer/builder to be sure what he gets is correct, a dealer (bike shop or auto) isn't necessarily going to be able to help you know what mix of parts will or won't work. maybe the guys back in the service/parts department might, but the sales guys out front selling new cars/bikes? fergit it.
01-04-13, 10:31 AM
#30
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Since (not to beat a dead horse) this is my first dealings with a bike shop (except for buying the kids' bikes 20 years ago which were stolen out of the garage in one week!), I really didn't do things like equate their staffs to a car dealership. Sadly, that is the exact experience I had. It's more than that, though. It's being told the wheels on your car (or seat or gauge in the dashboard) is only available with a NEW car and exact replacements aren't available. OK, now I get that on bikes, so moving past it. Using that analogy, I can forgive the front staff for not knowing those things.
What kills me here with these guys is that I see folks come in all bike'd-out (every piece of clothing bike oriented, etc) and riding their bikes and boy, they get help right away and the staff seems to know what they need. Even saw Santa on a pedi-cab a few weeks ago and my sales guy was helping him wrench. This was driven home yesterday when I watched the two women who work there completely disregard my presence, yet help the guy in spandex together!
The other part is the accuracy and consistency of information. Q: "How much would a new wheelset be?" A: (two hours later) 1) "Not sure". 2) "I'll have to research that." 3) "$165, but we can't order it till the 28th." Q: "Can I get a different cassette on it?" A: 1) "Yes, but you'll need other parts, too." 2) "No." 3) "I'll have to research that." The mech, as I think I mentioned, did set me straight - or at least provided the most complete answer. I've no idea if it's correct or not. He said to swap out the rear for a 8sp with different cog range is doable, but could result in uneven wear between the two wheelsets and the rest of the driveline. When asked about going to 9 or 10sp, he said that I'd end up replacing the whole driveline with possible exception of cables.
I'm probably a bit sensitive here. I was 350+lbs for many years and this is how I was treated EVERYWHERE. I left more stores of all stripes for lack of service or even just acknowledgement that I was alive than I can tell you. So now that I'm 225 - and still considered large for the biking community - I wonder if that attitude isn't what I'm experiencing again. For those of you who've never been big, you can't symp/empathize - not possible. And most would disagree this happens - although I've gone shopping for things (cars, furniture, electronics) with thin/normal friends and told them in advance to watch - and they are amazed. Every one of them thought the greed of sales would over ride the dislike of fat. It doesn't.
The bottom line here is simple and again, I might be repeating myself: 1) the front staff seems to be non-technical. Perhaps I should ask them about different levels of Pearl iZumi clothing. Maybe that they'll know. 2) A $700 bike is considered too cheap to be worth having a bike shop upgrade it. 3) This is my bad. I should have learned more FIRST before buying so I wouldn't be two months in and thinking I need new xxx, where xxx=everything. :0)
On the other hand, I rode 12 miles yesterday (4 all downhill, loss of 810'. 6 uphill, gain of 1250', 2 more downhill) on the new Schwalbes. I won't say it was day and night, but it was MUCH nicer. Downhill I hit 32mph - where the fastest on that route before had been 27. My son-in-law, for the first time, naturally, wants to go ride some hard-pack dirt trails this weekend. In eight years he's never asked to do an activity with me - ever. That second set of wheels with the knobby's sure would have been nice!!!!!!
What kills me here with these guys is that I see folks come in all bike'd-out (every piece of clothing bike oriented, etc) and riding their bikes and boy, they get help right away and the staff seems to know what they need. Even saw Santa on a pedi-cab a few weeks ago and my sales guy was helping him wrench. This was driven home yesterday when I watched the two women who work there completely disregard my presence, yet help the guy in spandex together!
The other part is the accuracy and consistency of information. Q: "How much would a new wheelset be?" A: (two hours later) 1) "Not sure". 2) "I'll have to research that." 3) "$165, but we can't order it till the 28th." Q: "Can I get a different cassette on it?" A: 1) "Yes, but you'll need other parts, too." 2) "No." 3) "I'll have to research that." The mech, as I think I mentioned, did set me straight - or at least provided the most complete answer. I've no idea if it's correct or not. He said to swap out the rear for a 8sp with different cog range is doable, but could result in uneven wear between the two wheelsets and the rest of the driveline. When asked about going to 9 or 10sp, he said that I'd end up replacing the whole driveline with possible exception of cables.
I'm probably a bit sensitive here. I was 350+lbs for many years and this is how I was treated EVERYWHERE. I left more stores of all stripes for lack of service or even just acknowledgement that I was alive than I can tell you. So now that I'm 225 - and still considered large for the biking community - I wonder if that attitude isn't what I'm experiencing again. For those of you who've never been big, you can't symp/empathize - not possible. And most would disagree this happens - although I've gone shopping for things (cars, furniture, electronics) with thin/normal friends and told them in advance to watch - and they are amazed. Every one of them thought the greed of sales would over ride the dislike of fat. It doesn't.
The bottom line here is simple and again, I might be repeating myself: 1) the front staff seems to be non-technical. Perhaps I should ask them about different levels of Pearl iZumi clothing. Maybe that they'll know. 2) A $700 bike is considered too cheap to be worth having a bike shop upgrade it. 3) This is my bad. I should have learned more FIRST before buying so I wouldn't be two months in and thinking I need new xxx, where xxx=everything. :0)
On the other hand, I rode 12 miles yesterday (4 all downhill, loss of 810'. 6 uphill, gain of 1250', 2 more downhill) on the new Schwalbes. I won't say it was day and night, but it was MUCH nicer. Downhill I hit 32mph - where the fastest on that route before had been 27. My son-in-law, for the first time, naturally, wants to go ride some hard-pack dirt trails this weekend. In eight years he's never asked to do an activity with me - ever. That second set of wheels with the knobby's sure would have been nice!!!!!!
01-04-13, 10:51 AM
#31
Really Old Senior Member
Maybe you just need to go to a SMALLER shop where the mechanics ARE the sales people.
01-04-13, 11:03 AM
#32
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Sounds like you're at the wrong shop.. I guess if its Trek its probably some big store with lots of low knowledge staff. Go there when you know what you want and looking to save money.
If you want good service and knowledgeable staff, go to a small shop and you might at least get someone who can talk you through it, that's usually what I've found. Might cost a bit more, but they should be able to hook you up with exactly what you want. I find these type of stores are willing to help me find parts for any old piece of crap bike, as they just have a passion for this kind of thing; hence owning/toiling in a bike shop all day!
Any store is going to have ordering policies, based on frequency (once a week?) or when they have a large enough order to place with the supplier. Keep that in mind.
So you have a Trek hybrid bike.
It has an 8 speed groupset with 700c wheels and disc brakes?
To me, that should absolutely fine on paved roads, etc.
Your problem is you want to ride on trails?
As I see it, you have a couple options:
1. Buy a 26" disc wheelset with + 12-25 Shimano/SRAM cassette and swap with the 12-32 8 speed cassette + tires. ~$250+ (all parts + labour or tools)
Tools would include a shimano cassette release tool and chain whip (click link for more on that).
Advantage: Low cost, easy to swap out the wheels. Your road wheelset has 12-25 rear and your MTB set has 12-32 rear. Learning about components/perhaps about how to upgrade/ repair.
Cons: Not as simple/easy as option 2. Hybrid geometry is not the best suited to trail riding. A bit of wrenching and tools involved.
MTB tires might not even fit your frame. Measure the width to see if there is enough clearance, and compare with the width of the MTB tires you want.
2. Buy a mountain bike. ~$300+ (used, decent hardtail bike with cable disc and front suspension fork)
Advantage: Easiest option. Made to ride on trails. No need to change wheels, or adjust drivetrain before riding. No wrenching.
Cons: Could cost a bit more.
Other than that, I'd say upgrading to 9/10 speed or any other upgrades are not worth it and border on the territory of simply purchasing a complete bike.
Before you go to the store, look at classified ads for used 26" disc wheelsets. Make sure they have disc brake mount, and a shimano/SRAM cassette freehub. Bonus if they come with an 8 speed cassette. Also see if there are any affordable used mtb's.
If you want good service and knowledgeable staff, go to a small shop and you might at least get someone who can talk you through it, that's usually what I've found. Might cost a bit more, but they should be able to hook you up with exactly what you want. I find these type of stores are willing to help me find parts for any old piece of crap bike, as they just have a passion for this kind of thing; hence owning/toiling in a bike shop all day!
Any store is going to have ordering policies, based on frequency (once a week?) or when they have a large enough order to place with the supplier. Keep that in mind.
So you have a Trek hybrid bike.
It has an 8 speed groupset with 700c wheels and disc brakes?
To me, that should absolutely fine on paved roads, etc.
Your problem is you want to ride on trails?
As I see it, you have a couple options:
1. Buy a 26" disc wheelset with + 12-25 Shimano/SRAM cassette and swap with the 12-32 8 speed cassette + tires. ~$250+ (all parts + labour or tools)
Tools would include a shimano cassette release tool and chain whip (click link for more on that).
Advantage: Low cost, easy to swap out the wheels. Your road wheelset has 12-25 rear and your MTB set has 12-32 rear. Learning about components/perhaps about how to upgrade/ repair.
Cons: Not as simple/easy as option 2. Hybrid geometry is not the best suited to trail riding. A bit of wrenching and tools involved.
MTB tires might not even fit your frame. Measure the width to see if there is enough clearance, and compare with the width of the MTB tires you want.
2. Buy a mountain bike. ~$300+ (used, decent hardtail bike with cable disc and front suspension fork)
Advantage: Easiest option. Made to ride on trails. No need to change wheels, or adjust drivetrain before riding. No wrenching.
Cons: Could cost a bit more.
Other than that, I'd say upgrading to 9/10 speed or any other upgrades are not worth it and border on the territory of simply purchasing a complete bike.
Before you go to the store, look at classified ads for used 26" disc wheelsets. Make sure they have disc brake mount, and a shimano/SRAM cassette freehub. Bonus if they come with an 8 speed cassette. Also see if there are any affordable used mtb's.
Last edited by kmv2; 01-04-13 at 11:07 AM.
01-04-13, 12:00 PM
#33
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kmv2: No, I want to ride road more. My bike has 700c wheels, disc brakes and a 12-32 8sp rear. What I was trying to accomplish was one of three things: 1) get a second set of wheels, set up just like the oem ones with the exception of changing tires to a more road oriented pair; 2) same thing, but change out cassette to another 8sp, maybe 12-25; 3) same thing as 2, but add gears to either a 9 or 10sp.
I know I gain little. I know it's expensive. I get all that now. I've learned a lot in two weeks. And in the two months since I bought the bike.
So what did I hope to gain?
With any of the upgrade scenarios, I wanted some more road-oriented tires. I wanted higher-pressure, less tread, easier rolling. I selected Schwalbe Marathon Supreme in 700x35 - just slightly smaller than the 38's my DS 8.3 shipped with. With the change in cassettes? Perhaps just easier shifts and closer ratios so that 1st and 2nd aren't so different. And in the third scenario? A vaguely understood desire to have more gears and 'better' components. Part of the driver here is I want to participate in a group ride of 40 miles and I believe (though have no proof as I've never, ever ridden in a group of any size including 2) that my bike will prove....unworthy of the trek. This is probably a misplaced notion.
I know I can get a new/used/stolen/imagined bike for the road for about what upgrading mine would cost. Again, I've learned a lot. For a mulligan here, I'd be buying a FX. I'm not going to need front suspension but my back will never permit me to use drop bars, ever.
So I keep coming back to thinking a "new" bike would mean... the same type as what I have, sans suspension. Having two hybrids, on my budget, one for street, one for the very few times I'll go off-road, is not a great plan. Had I been a little more educated and a little less opinionated, I would have bought a FX to begin with and none of this would be in question right now.
The end result is I have changed my tires to the new Schwalbe's - with which I am so far very happy. I don't have a spare set of wheels with my knobby's on them - yet. Believe it or don't, I got a call from the LBS I've been dealing with and they wanted to know if I wanted those wheels for $165 that they can order the 28th! They called me! Wow.
I think this thread has run its course and achieved its goal: my education, however many hard knocks. I priced a new set of Deore gear and it's around $400 - no install work. I still might get it later on. I still like the idea of having higher end gear - for whatever nebulous reason I define as adequate. I can do it and have done it before. I don't wanna install it myself as I want my bike to work. I'm going to a truly local shop today where he's all about the wrenching to talk to him about this. In the meantime, I need to work on RIDING more and typing less. All this knowledge and discussion will be of faint praise come 6am on 2/10 when I go to check in for the 40 mile ride.
I know I gain little. I know it's expensive. I get all that now. I've learned a lot in two weeks. And in the two months since I bought the bike.
So what did I hope to gain?
With any of the upgrade scenarios, I wanted some more road-oriented tires. I wanted higher-pressure, less tread, easier rolling. I selected Schwalbe Marathon Supreme in 700x35 - just slightly smaller than the 38's my DS 8.3 shipped with. With the change in cassettes? Perhaps just easier shifts and closer ratios so that 1st and 2nd aren't so different. And in the third scenario? A vaguely understood desire to have more gears and 'better' components. Part of the driver here is I want to participate in a group ride of 40 miles and I believe (though have no proof as I've never, ever ridden in a group of any size including 2) that my bike will prove....unworthy of the trek. This is probably a misplaced notion.
I know I can get a new/used/stolen/imagined bike for the road for about what upgrading mine would cost. Again, I've learned a lot. For a mulligan here, I'd be buying a FX. I'm not going to need front suspension but my back will never permit me to use drop bars, ever.
So I keep coming back to thinking a "new" bike would mean... the same type as what I have, sans suspension. Having two hybrids, on my budget, one for street, one for the very few times I'll go off-road, is not a great plan. Had I been a little more educated and a little less opinionated, I would have bought a FX to begin with and none of this would be in question right now.
The end result is I have changed my tires to the new Schwalbe's - with which I am so far very happy. I don't have a spare set of wheels with my knobby's on them - yet. Believe it or don't, I got a call from the LBS I've been dealing with and they wanted to know if I wanted those wheels for $165 that they can order the 28th! They called me! Wow.
I think this thread has run its course and achieved its goal: my education, however many hard knocks. I priced a new set of Deore gear and it's around $400 - no install work. I still might get it later on. I still like the idea of having higher end gear - for whatever nebulous reason I define as adequate. I can do it and have done it before. I don't wanna install it myself as I want my bike to work. I'm going to a truly local shop today where he's all about the wrenching to talk to him about this. In the meantime, I need to work on RIDING more and typing less. All this knowledge and discussion will be of faint praise come 6am on 2/10 when I go to check in for the 40 mile ride.
01-04-13, 12:17 PM
#34
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01-04-13, 12:29 PM
#35
Really Old Senior Member
That can make lower end components work just fine.
You can also disassemble 2 cassettes and make one up with "custom" cogs.
I've made up-
12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21
for my "flat" riding, back when I had 8 speed.
My 12-23 9 speed doesn't add that much more over 8 except "bling" factor.
01-04-13, 02:02 PM
#36
S'Cruzer
low end cassettes tend to be rivetted together.
[I still remember the bikg shop having a big wooden box of Regina DelOro cogs for building custom freewheels back in the 2x5 days... I ran 13-15-17-19-21 with a 52:42 front for quite a long time, and could climb most any mountain coastal california tossed at me]
[I still remember the bikg shop having a big wooden box of Regina DelOro cogs for building custom freewheels back in the 2x5 days... I ran 13-15-17-19-21 with a 52:42 front for quite a long time, and could climb most any mountain coastal california tossed at me]
01-05-13, 09:16 AM
#37
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Removing the rivets takes about ten minutes with a file, or about ten seconds with a Dremel. The 7-speed cassette on the bike I have with me at university is actually an 8-speed one with the biggest sprocket removed. The only issue with custom Hyperglide cassettes is that the shift ramps may not line up, but they still don't shift any worse than the old non-Hyperglide sprockets.
01-05-13, 09:24 AM
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MadProphet, one your best investments could be a class on bike maintenance and adjustment. It sounds like you don't have a local bike shop good enough to do a decent class for its customers, but if there's a community college nearby, maybe they have an community education program?
Or we can recommend some books that do more than give you conflicting information in a jumbled collection of YouTube videos, and you can read some good instructions as you contemplate a modification, adjustment, or repair. Do that, keep your own bike in top shape for a few months, and you'll be able to answer some of our questions!
Or we can recommend some books that do more than give you conflicting information in a jumbled collection of YouTube videos, and you can read some good instructions as you contemplate a modification, adjustment, or repair. Do that, keep your own bike in top shape for a few months, and you'll be able to answer some of our questions!
01-05-13, 04:05 PM
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You can still get a close ratio cassette. Stay with 8-speed and there's no problem, Not much cost either.
You can get another wheelset. Unless you insist on the labels matching, a functional match isn't an issue either. Chain/cassette wear may be an issue, depending on mileage. Either keep a chain for each wheelset, or simply keep the replacement intervals short. Won't take hysterical amounts of time or money either.
As long as you have a triple front, a tight ratio rear will still let you do just about any ride. Possibly except loaded alpine touring. And while I'm certainly able to ride wide ratios, tight ratios just feel so much nicer. Having to go for a 2nd consecutive gear change is a lot less annoying than not finding the "right" ratio.
And for that 40 mile ride: you have to get fairly competitive before the suitability of the bike becomes more important than the fitness of the rider. As long as it's clean, lubed and properly adjusted, pretty much anything apart from BMXes, full-sus department store MTBs and cruiser bikes should do OK.
You can get another wheelset. Unless you insist on the labels matching, a functional match isn't an issue either. Chain/cassette wear may be an issue, depending on mileage. Either keep a chain for each wheelset, or simply keep the replacement intervals short. Won't take hysterical amounts of time or money either.
As long as you have a triple front, a tight ratio rear will still let you do just about any ride. Possibly except loaded alpine touring. And while I'm certainly able to ride wide ratios, tight ratios just feel so much nicer. Having to go for a 2nd consecutive gear change is a lot less annoying than not finding the "right" ratio.
And for that 40 mile ride: you have to get fairly competitive before the suitability of the bike becomes more important than the fitness of the rider. As long as it's clean, lubed and properly adjusted, pretty much anything apart from BMXes, full-sus department store MTBs and cruiser bikes should do OK.
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01-15-15 12:37 PM
