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  1. #1
    DOS
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    Mixing BB cups and spindles

    I posted this on c&v but got no response (partly because I buried it in an older thread) but I thought I'd post here to get mechanic perspective. I have a set of 80s superbe pro cranks on an old schwinn that I have mated with a nice 80s campy adjustable BB with 114.5mm spindle. The match works but I have always wanted to get the bb that goes with the cranks. After intermittent searching, I, at long last, located and acquired the 113mm suntour superbe pro bb spindle that is the correct match for these particular cranks ; while I did not get the cups, I thought I'd swap in the spindle to get the most correct chainline (just because). What I failed to consider in acquiring the spindle, is that the campy cups I have are the "thin cups" that came with some campy BBs so they dont work with the suntour spindle. Since suntour superbe pro BBs with 109mm spindle are fairly common (apparently they are used often on fixies with suntour track cranks), I was thinking I'd just buy one and use the cups but thought I'd check here to see if anyone was aware that cups would be different. Alternatively, I wonder if I could use campy "thick cups" from the era as well since the spindles that go with those cups have same 49mm "B measurement" as the suntour spindle. Any info/theories/thoughts welcome.
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    "The match works"
    Leave it be and ride the bike.

  3. #3
    DOS
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
    "The match works"
    Leave it be and ride the bike.
    Yeah, fair point. When I got the frame, Waterford built Schwinn Paramount, I had two objectives. First, get it on the road, which I did several years ago with a mix of parts. Second longer term goal has always been to restore it to something akin to its original grandeur, which I am a long way from; although I have way cool Campy derailluers, levers and hubs that will always be on the bike. But occasionally I look for match set parts as a step in that direction and I like idea of having some suntaour components as sort of an homage to the quality stuff they made in 70s and 80s. What can I say, no one ever claimed that restoration of this sort was in any way practical from a functioning bike standpoint, yet we do it anyway. Should add, assuming they'd work, if I found campy thick cups before superbe ones, I'd get them as temporary solution to make spindle work but still look for superbe pro cups in future. Crazy, right.
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    It sounds like a lot of work and some expense to replace something that already works well and no one can see except you. I agree, leave it alone.

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    DOS
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    It sounds like a lot of work and some expense to replace something that already works well and no one can see except you. I agree, leave it alone.
    Ha, this is what I love about bike forums, depending on the forum, totally different philosophies. On mechanic forum, definitely a "that it works is what matters" philosophy. On C&V, "making it 'right'" is paramount. Dont even get me started on different sensibilities between road forum and mountain bike forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOS View Post
    Ha, this is what I love about bike forums, depending on the forum, totally different philosophies. On mechanic forum, definitely a "that it works is what matters" philosophy. On C&V, "making it 'right'" is paramount. Dont even get me started on different sensibilities between road forum and mountain bike forum.
    OK, but you are still considering using Campy cups with the Sun Tour spindle so that can't be "right" either. Restorations are works of love, not common sense aren't they?

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    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    If it's a Waterford built Paramount, they came variously equipped over the years, and
    a number were sold as framesets.........how exactly did you figger out original equipage ?

    I have a few of these bikes, and if you are just trying to go all Suntour Superbe, I can
    certainly understand that, but I'm not OCD enough to worry about something as invisible
    as the BB, and have, in fact, been known to just go with a sealed cartridge unit of
    appropriate spindle length and taper......

    ..................quite shocking, now that I actually see it written down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheshire Cat
    Only a few find the way, some don't recognize it when they do - some... don't ever want to.

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    DOS
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    OK, but you are still considering using Campy cups with the Sun Tour spindle so that can't be "right" either. Restorations are works of love, not common sense aren't they?
    Correct, using campy cups would be temorarty to make spindle work until I find matching suntour.
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    DOS
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
    If it's a Waterford built Paramount, they came variously equipped over the years, and
    a number were sold as framesets.........how exactly did you figger out original equipage ?

    I have a few of these bikes, and if you are just trying to go all Suntour Superbe, I can
    certainly understand that, but I'm not OCD enough to worry about something as invisible
    as the BB, and have, in fact, been known to just go with a sealed cartridge unit of
    appropriate spindle length and taper......

    ..................quite shocking, now that I actually see it written down.
    The bike I think was originally all shimano dura ace. so I am not trying to do that. I have sort of built it as homage to various sets. But I have match set campy derailleurs and hubs, match set shimano brakes and levers so I would like matchset cranks and BB. Why I want to do it this way, I cant say.
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  10. #10
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOS View Post
    I posted this on c&v but got no response (partly because I buried it in an older thread) but I thought I'd post here to get mechanic perspective. I have a set of 80s superbe pro cranks on an old schwinn that I have mated with a nice 80s campy adjustable BB with 114.5mm spindle. The match works but I have always wanted to get the bb that goes with the cranks. After intermittent searching, I, at long last, located and acquired the 113mm suntour superbe pro bb spindle that is the correct match for these particular cranks ; while I did not get the cups, I thought I'd swap in the spindle to get the most correct chainline (just because). What I failed to consider in acquiring the spindle, is that the campy cups I have are the "thin cups" that came with some campy BBs so they dont work with the suntour spindle. Since suntour superbe pro BBs with 109mm spindle are fairly common (apparently they are used often on fixies with suntour track cranks), I was thinking I'd just buy one and use the cups but thought I'd check here to see if anyone was aware that cups would be different. Alternatively, I wonder if I could use campy "thick cups" from the era as well since the spindles that go with those cups have same 49mm "B measurement" as the suntour spindle. Any info/theories/thoughts welcome.
    You may run into the same thin/thick problem with the the Suntour SB Track cups, as like other manufacturers the loose ball track bottom brackets are not sealed and some non-sealed bottom bracket cups are thinner than the cups with seals.
    E fatto espresso divieto di partecipare alla manifestazione con biciclette che non possiedano i suddetti requisiti.Ogni tentativo di farlo a mangiare un piatto di grandi dimensioni di 3 settimane la polenta e in genere di divertimento, soprattutto se egli straniero.

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    IMO the only way to know is trying. Personally I havent mixed those two brands but i have done weird stuff with generic no name cups and old shimano stuff, but w/o trying is hard to tell. I think is way too much work to get the chainline right, i mean... if the chainline is off 2 mm is just a detail because a chain is not rigid, it flex way more than 2 mm, sure you know that.

    I will assume you are running a fix gear? no idea if the stuff you are talking about is road or track, there is superbe pro road aswell.

    114.5 to 113?? thats 1.5 mm, the crank neither the chain line will notice that change because you are moving 0.75 mm at both sides (thinking in a symmetric BB axle). Worse case scenario just put a 1 or 2 mm spacer behind the cog that is way easier to do than mix and match stuff that probably wont work. Besides LBSs have those spacers usually in their box of junk parts and usually you can get them for free.

    What in the world is "80s campy adjustable BB with 114.5mm spindle" ??? what are you talking about here?

    It wouldn't surprise me at all that the usual iso 109 mm would work just fine aswell.

    OK this is the part that might freak you out... from 113 to 109 you have 4 mm... that means 2 mm per side... that means the crankset will be 2 mm closer. You can find a sealed iso miche 109 in several places around the web and that BB has adjustable cups at both sides so if you get kind'a short you can tweak it a little bit.

    Good luck man, you are doing this way too complicated to move that chainline just less than 1 millimeter

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    Forgot this, if you need help let me know but you have to come to sterling.

    Leave that as it is, you are wasting you time for 0.75 mm

  13. #13
    DOS
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post

    What in the world is "80s campy adjustable BB with 114.5mm spindle" ??? what are you talking about here?
    I am currently using a Campy Gran Sport BB, from the late 70s-early 80s era, which used a 114.5 mm spindle. I assume they matched with Gran sport cranks.

    Anyway, this really has nothing to do with chainline. 109mm spindle would not work, I am only interested in 109 because complete BB's with 109 spindle are fairly common so I can probably get one fairly easily and use the cups with my 113 spindle. Going from 114.5 to 113 really changes nothing chainline wise because the length difference in the spindles is mainly in the b section (which is why they require different cups), but the drive sides of the two spindles are identical (both are assymetrical spindles) so will position the cranks in same place. My interest is totally about deriving satisfaction having the match set cranks and BBs (why this is satisfying I won't try to explain because it cant be explained in any logical way that folks who aren't into the whole restoration thing would see as a rational argument -- perhaps because the argument is not rational).
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    The nice about squared tapper is that you can just use whatever it fits in there, if you want matched stuff great

  15. #15
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    I figured what is needed here are more compatibility issues. FYI most Suntour cranks have a JIS taper except for the Track that use an ISO taper, so it's probable that your Superbe crank is JIS and the Superbe track BB spindle you are looking at is ISO. OTOH if you have been using a post 1978 Campy BB, then you may already have a JIS/ISO mismatch, but it seems to be working fine for you (a JIS crank /ISO spindle mismatch will move the crank about 4.5mm farther out on the spindle). Just saying
    E fatto espresso divieto di partecipare alla manifestazione con biciclette che non possiedano i suddetti requisiti.Ogni tentativo di farlo a mangiare un piatto di grandi dimensioni di 3 settimane la polenta e in genere di divertimento, soprattutto se egli straniero.

  16. #16
    DOS
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    Quote Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
    I figured what is needed here are more compatibility issues. FYI most Suntour cranks have a JIS taper except for the Track that use an ISO taper, so it's probable that your Superbe crank is JIS and the Superbe track BB spindle you are looking at is ISO. OTOH if you have been using a post 1978 Campy BB, then you may already have a JIS/ISO mismatch, but it seems to be working fine for you (a JIS crank /ISO spindle mismatch will move the crank about 4.5mm farther out on the spindle). Just saying
    No taper mismatch. I had read on Sheldon Brown site that suntour in the 80s used a proprietary spindle different that either standard but closer to ISO so campy was recommended, which is why I used Campy. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/suntour.html

    I dont know about all Suntour, but the suntour spindle I have, which is no doubt a match for my cranks (mid 80s superbe pro road cranks and spindle) , is quite clearly the same taper as the campy spindle I am using. Both spindles visibly different that the shimano BBs I happen to have lying around.
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  17. #17
    Retro Grouch onespeedbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOS View Post
    No taper mismatch. I had read on Sheldon Brown site that suntour in the 80s used a proprietary spindle different that either standard but closer to ISO so campy was recommended, which is why I used Campy. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/suntour.html

    I dont know about all Suntour, but the suntour spindle I have, which is no doubt a match for my cranks (mid 80s superbe pro road cranks and spindle) , is quite clearly the same taper as the campy spindle I am using. Both spindles visibly different that the shimano BBs I happen to have lying around.
    Ah yes, Superbe Pro SQ is different than Superbe; my bad.
    E fatto espresso divieto di partecipare alla manifestazione con biciclette che non possiedano i suddetti requisiti.Ogni tentativo di farlo a mangiare un piatto di grandi dimensioni di 3 settimane la polenta e in genere di divertimento, soprattutto se egli straniero.

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