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Old 01-16-13, 10:03 AM   #1
SortaGrey
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Securing NDS spokes

A request please: lets be clear on this question.. and avoid lots of musical instrument tuning.

This scenario: wider width rear hub... NDS tension goes 65 kgf average around the wheel. This rim I limit ND tension at 125 kgf.. hence NDS tension is lighter than I want.. long term. If one runs the stats on lots of builds... NDS tensions are lower yet.. in the 'they'll shake loose' category.

I know.. spoke preps. Not for me to date.. maybe later. Wipe that one off.

Lots of builders glue them. How? If a spoke head is somewhat below the nipple juncture.. ie: does not protrude any length.. will a glue hold setting a drop into the recess?

Any type of glue thin enough to run down the spoke into the nipple from the outside? I wonder if a solder would run into that recess from same?

Locking nipples.. don't. Back them off and what I found is they loose that ability.

SPOKE preps.. just have not ordered from anyone carrying the stuff to date. On my 'to try' list.. don't like the idea messing/fiddling with it. Anyone ever tried fresh pine pitch? I know the linseed thing.. one trial here showed just takes too long to set up well. I'm sure many find it fine.

Think most of us that try to do it right.. find our wheels 'stay put'.. retouching after a few rides isn't required. Yet again today's roads.. RR tracks taken at speed... means potential loosening NDS. Myself only once has this happened.. after lubing the threads.. which is a NO go now.
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Old 01-16-13, 10:14 AM   #2
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Take a look at Gerd Schraner's book "The Art of Wheelbuilding". It's on the web in .PDF format (~6Mbytes) (use google); and it deals with all your questions. Good luck!

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Old 01-16-13, 10:16 AM   #3
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If I was cold.. I'd acquire both books. Then use them for making heat............

Reviewed both.. NWTT. Just me...
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Old 01-16-13, 10:17 AM   #4
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If you are using brass, what you can do is just grab a hose and water the nipples and let it sit for a couple of days.

Next option use tubular glue and put that in the nipple heads, obviously not from the outside where it will look really bad.

What I would do since you are a whining that much is to just go 3x ds and straight no crossing NDS. That way you will get better tension at the NDS. And this time put spoke prep or maybe some low tack loctite in the spoke threads.
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Old 01-16-13, 10:19 AM   #5
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The wheelsmith spoke prep was a lubricant, to reduce spoke windup, [which will later unwind]
and will set as a thread lock when it cures..

I have used antisieze, happy enough with it over the decades.

my wheels went on touring bikes , so more like farm vehicles than race gear.

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Old 01-16-13, 10:20 AM   #6
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Thanks for the compliment...

Radial does NOT increase tension over crossing. Obviously.. radial in NOT recommended for all hubs.
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Old 01-16-13, 10:36 AM   #7
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Thanks for the compliment...

Radial does NOT increase tension over crossing. Obviously.. radial in NOT recommended for all hubs.
I agree that radial isn't a smart way to solve the problem, but it can increase NDS tension, if it's done all elbows in. However the effect is very marginal vs. a standard pattern.

The best way to deal with low left tension is to use lighter butted spokes. These elongate more at the same tension, and so have more ability to accommodate rim deflections before becoming slack.

If the wheel is built already the next best thing is to bond or increase friction between the nipple and rim. Loctite makes a post-assembly (green) compound, apply a drop between the nipple and rim and spin the wheel to drive it down to the nipple seat, then wipe off all visible excess before it dries. You can achieve good results with a less specific product like all purpose household glue (do they still make Duco?) or rubber cement.

Rim cement also works, but is messier to work with because it tends to be stringy and hard to wipe clean.
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Old 01-16-13, 10:46 AM   #8
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if it's done all elbows in. However the effect is very marginal vs. a standard pattern.
Another reason I have not laced 'heads in' to date radial.. is I suspect inbounds are more susceptible to 'head slap' on hard impacts. Whereas outbound's tend to contact the hub at a pt.. methinks minimizing said head slap. [?].

Head slap being my term for the spoke de-tensioning and then subsequent re-seating with a jolt when the spoke goes slack... again with the hard impacts.

I now use always.. Sapin Strong butted on all inbound rears. All Sapin Strong on rear triplet lacings.
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Old 01-16-13, 10:53 AM   #9
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Another reason I have not laced 'heads in' to date radial.. is I suspect inbounds are more susceptible to 'head slap' on hard impacts. Whereas outbound's tend to contact the hub at a pt.. methinks minimizing said head slap. [?].
Like you I usually lace radials head in, but not out of a concern about spoke breakage. I only lace radial for front track wheels where lateral rigidity is at a premium. Elbow out maximizes the bracing angle increasing rigidity which is why I did it in the first place.

That said, most builders build radials elbows in and I don't know of any issues of spoke breakage with that.

As I said earlier, the way to prevent the "spoke slap" you describe is to increase elongation by using lighter spokes.
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Old 01-16-13, 12:57 PM   #10
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I pretty much universally do OC rear rims which does a lot to even the tension between DS and NDS.

Spoke prep is a hassle but I still experiment. Went from wheelsmith spoke prep to linseed oil to (most recent build) Phil's Tenacious.

I'm thinking my ideal would be linseed on the threads and Phil's on the nipple/rim contacts.

Last edited by dbg; 01-16-13 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 01-16-13, 01:16 PM   #11
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1. Thin, wicking, post assembly, loctite. Works, but, you may have issues ever truing the wheel in the future.
2. I've heard of mechanics crimping the nipples slightly with a pair of smooth jawed pliers. Not what I would recommend but may work.
3. Thinner gauge NDS spokes for the additional elongation and subsequent recovery before going slack. My currently prefered option when spec'ing components to start with.
4. Wheelsmith spoke prep. I use the stuff sparingly. It seems to help with both decreasing spoke wind up and discouraging NDS nipples from loosening.
5. I have a block of bee's wax I intend to trial. Some builders seem to have good luck with the stuff.
6. Boiled linseed oil, I haven't used. But, I have an old pair of Nisi's laced to record hubs, built by an old Italian mechanic in the early 80's who utilized just that and they remained true over many thousands of miles before the becam wall orniments.

I don't know your bracing angle. But, on 700c road wheels, even at 115kg of rider weight, if I can achieve 70kgf of NDS tension mine don't back off (using standard 14/15 db spokes). Sub 60 or so and I start experiencing issues. YMMV
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Old 01-16-13, 01:25 PM   #12
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1. Thin, wicking, post assembly, loctite. Works, but, you may have issues ever truing the wheel in the future.
If loctite 290 (green) is used you'll be fine, it's not a very strong adhesive. Stay away from the red loctite. I've built a number standard 3x rear wheels and haven't had any problems with left side spokes unwinding. Most stores around here only seem to sell red and blue loctite though. The blue stuff is stronger than the green and not designed to wick into assembled connections. I put the green stuff on machine built wheels to prevent galvanic corrosion more than anything else. I don't think glue of any sort should be used to hold a wheel together but I'm just an amateur so what do I know?
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Old 01-16-13, 01:35 PM   #13
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glue of any sort should be used to hold a wheel together but I'm just an amateur so what do I know?
NOT the case.. just keeps said nipple from unwinding when loose via hard impacts. Preventative medicine.

Take a 56-58 mm width rear.. 10 speeds.. tension is 35% of DS on the NDS. And while high spoke tension is in vogue.. not all the rims can handle that.. for the count.

Then ...start sticking these wider gears into less than 130 widths.
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Old 01-16-13, 01:49 PM   #14
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Then ...start sticking these wider gears into less than 130 widths.
Aha. Would it be correct to say you removed all possible axle spacers to get an 8+ speed freehub into 126mm, and there's a really asymmetrical wheel as a result?

How many spokes total? I think Frank's suggestion to use thinner spokes on the NDS could help -- would leaving out every other NDS spoke be a horrible idea, so that the remainder could carry more tension?
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Old 01-16-13, 01:57 PM   #15
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Aha. Would it be correct to say you removed all possible axle spacers to get an 8+ speed freehub into 126mm, and there's a really asymmetrical wheel as a result?

How many spokes total? I think Frank's suggestion to use thinner spokes on the NDS could help -- would leaving out every other NDS spoke be a horrible idea, so that the remainder could carry more tension?
Yes.. rob all the extra DS spacing into the NDS spacers... that ain't too much though.. and still clear the chain around the cog.

Can't skip spokes. Triplets are 16-8's for instance with 32 h hubs.. that sort of routine. My MTB wheel built that way is equal tension side to side.

Yammering away I am today... sluffing off. I'll post the 28 H triplet soon. 18 DS spokes.. strong as a 36H.. ? who knows.. will have to ride it and find out. Very round & taunt.. NDS tension has more variation that I like.. the nature of using a 'pre-owned rim'. And the sequence changes off one time on the NDS.. rather than 2-1 all around.. you have to split one DS triangle to balance it out.
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Old 01-16-13, 02:13 PM   #16
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NOT the case.. just keeps said nipple from unwinding when loose via hard impacts. Preventative medicine.

Take a 56-58 mm width rear.. 10 speeds.. tension is 35% of DS on the NDS. And while high spoke tension is in vogue.. not all the rims can handle that.. for the count.

Then ...start sticking these wider gears into less than 130 widths.
uh... have fun I guess.
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Old 01-16-13, 02:22 PM   #17
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...........Take a 56-58 mm width rear.. 10 speeds.. tension is 35% of DS on the NDS. And while high spoke tension is in vogue.. not all the rims can handle that.. for the count.

Then ...start sticking these wider gears into less than 130 widths.
I'm with the "thinner" spoke on the NDS.
Example-
a 1.5MM spoke has 56.3% as much cross sectional area as a 2.0MM spoke. I would expect the same elongation as a 2.0MM DS spoke with that 56.3% of the DS tension.

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Old 02-02-13, 01:41 PM   #18
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Seems... the DT's endorse nipple securement.

Spoke Freeze – Nipple locking system for wheelbuilding – on the built wheel
www.dtswiss.com

Apply one drop of DT spoke freeze to each nipple-spoke joint (see picture):
on a degrease spoke thread: nipple is firmly fixed – no loosening
on an oiled spoke thread: nipple is fixed – but still can be turned forcefully with a
nipple wrench for retruing
200906
Full stability after 12 hours at room temperature; the wheel
can already be used after four hours. The adhesive stays
stable at temperatures between -50°C and +150°C.
DT spoke freeze – developed by DT Swiss and Loctite –
is an anaerobic adhesive which only hardens under
hermetic contact of two metal sufraces. It is therefore
supplied in half-filled bottles (net content 10 ml). One
filling lasts for approx. 350 joints.

http://www.dtswiss.com/Resources/Sup...User-Manual-en
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