AS Collie

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I had a good look and couldn't find it.

My question is this:

Mavic recommends a maximum spoke tension of between 90-110Kgf on all their rims. I've built a set of wheels using Open Pros, Record hubs and DT Swiss Competition spokes. I've ridden the wheel for over 2000km now and it's performed well, but the tension's been bugging me because to achieve the proper dish to allow for 11-speed, the drive side tension is at around 130kgf, while the non-drive is at around 70kgf (apologies for the rough estimates, the exact measurements escape my mind).

Is this excessive? I've never had an issue with any of the wheels I've built, but I'm self-taught and I've never had an 11-speed one before, so it'd been on my mind ...

Thanks in advance for any and all comments.

davidad

How many spokes?

fietsbob

Lacking Data.. Hub flange spacing different than 8~9~10 speed ? by how much?

if you know the rim max, that is it. in order to dish more than that,
you lower the tension on thre NDS.

to let the rim move right-ward.

AS Collie

Oh, sorry. I didn't think it mattered as Mavic seem to give the same advice on all their rims. 32 spokes, 3 crossed.

fietsbob, according to what I've read, the maximum advised by Mavic is 110 and the minimum is 90, but that doesn't seem feasible because even at 130 (I went and checked after posting), the non-drive is still below the minimum advised (it's at about 80).

Grateful for the quick input, btw.

Bill Kapaun

There are others far more knowledgeable about this, but from what I've gathered-
70 is OK on NDS.
A "thinner" butted spoke is desirable, because it puts the "elongation" relatively closer to that of the DS spoke.
You may want to use a thread compound such as Spoke Prep, Blue Locktite or boiled linseed oil to keep nipples from loosening.

Al1943

You're probably OK. Check the tension with the tires fully inflated. There should be no difference between 8, 9, 10, or 11. The cassette width is essentially the same. The differential (left to right) is common for multi-speed rear wheels. If I were you I'd reduce the drive-side spoke tension to about 120 and reduce the non-drive-side to whatever it takes to center the rim.

FBinNY 

First of all, the wheel's built, used and performing well, so there's little benefit to changing anything now.

However, this is always an issue on high dish wheels. I consider 50kgf the minimum on the left, and on wheels like these it can easily force me above 110kgf on the right. I try to split the difference as best I can. One thing that helps tremendously is using butted spokes which reduce shock stress on the rim.

I also use lighter spokes on the left, typically building rears 1.8mm (center section) on the right, and 1.6mm on the left. The thinner spokes are more elongated at the same tension, so prevent the slack spoke effect when the rim deflects on large bumps.

Other factors also come into play, deeper section rims deflect less on impacts, and so are more forgiving or lower tension, as are wheels with more spokes.

When all is said and done, I usually cannot build wheels with what I'd like as tension on the left without having more tension than I'd like on the right. So I throw all the variables -- no. of spokes, spoke gauge, rim profile, rim makers tension spec, weight of rider, purpose, etc. -- into the hopper, turn the crank and pull out my best guess for the least of all evils and build accordingly. With very heavy riders I often suggest they avoid high dish wheels altogether if at all possible, or look for the hub that will give them the smallest ratio of right left tension.

BTW-- none of this is new, 40 years ago wheelbuilders screamed bloody murder when they introduces 6s on 120mm hubs, then they went to 126, and we were appeased a bit. Then we cried when they went to 8s and 9s, so they widened the hubs to 130mm, now it's 10s and 11s on 130 which is pusing things a but, and I expect that we'll see 135mm road soon enough.

The problem is that as they widen axles they also push chainlines outboard which creates other problems. Remember when folks were getting all worked up about low Q-factors?

Hydrated

This is really what you must do. Account for all of the variables and do your best.

Even then you sometimes run into wheels that are so unbalanced that it seems as though they shouldn't be built at all. I built a 16 spoke rear wheel for a guy a couple of years ago that I couldn't get dished without going crazy unbalanced on the spoke tensions. It was a Bontrager rim, so I contacted Trek to get the rim's tension specs.

The tensions that they quoted were so freaky that I emailed them twice because I thought that they'd gotten it wrong the first time. They specced the drive side at 145kgf and the NDS at 34kgf. I'd never seen a wheel that had a DS spoke tension that was over 4 times the NDS tension.

That wheel was a poster child for why I hate low spoke count wheels. One broken spoke and that wheel was unrideable and rubbing the frame.

SJX426 

I had a spoke break on a 28 spoke wheel that was unridable due to the rub on the brake. It was a two mile walk with spd cleats in 95+ temp up a hill that was near 20+% grade at one point.

AS Collie

Wow. That's extreme. I feel better now

FBinNY, thanks for the input too. The wheel rides perfectly, I was just asking out of interest more than anything else. I went with a higher tension because I've had problems in the past on other wheels with spokes coming undone.

Kimmo 

Broken spokes don't happen to me. I love low spoke count wheels.

On these new 11s hubs, I'd be tempted to squeeze in some more OLD or lace the DS radial, heads in.

Or just use an OCR, of course.

AS Collie

Hi Kimmo, I'm not familiar with the term OCR. Do you mean a rim with off-centre drilling? Or is it something else?

interested

I have build all my rear wheels with +130Kgf on the drive side for many years without any problems (Mavic CXP 33 and OEM single eyelet rims; 36H 3X spoke lacing). I find that 110 Kgf DS is way too little on Campagnolo 10/11 speed rear hubs for my use. (I sometimes ride with heavy loads in my panniers). AFAIK, there is no difference between the dishing regarding Campagnolo 10 or 11 speed wheels, so what works for 10 speed works for 11 speed too.

I find that that Mavic's max spoke tension limit is quite unrealistic low, perhaps from shielding them from claims if the people experience eyelet cracks. Another take on the low limit is, that is an average max, e.g. 130Kgf DS + 70Kgf NDS = 200 Kgf. Divide that result with two, and you have an average tension of 100 Kgf. Not sure it is a correct interpretation though.

AS Collie

I wondered that too. I suppose the immediate application of the force is still at the eyelet, where the most obvious weak spot would be too, but as they're relatively close together I did think that it might in someway spread the load.

ultraman6970

If the wheel works ok just leave it. Another work around is to built a triplet using the 32 hub but you will need a 24H rim tho. 16 driver side 3x and 8 nds 1x or straight. The tension of the wheel will get almost even at both sides.

Good luck.

Dan Burkhart 

Boast not, lest ye incur the wrath of the wheel gods.