Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-24-13, 07:40 PM   #26
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 29,111
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
The more you historians post, the less original this concept sounds.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-13, 07:47 PM   #27
FBinNY 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,828
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 859 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
The more you historians post, the less original this concept sounds.
Hence the "not so NEW.It's basically a remake of the Cinelli Bi-valent concept. I actually feel that executed well the idea has virtues, but feel bad for the "inventor" since if there's any success, he'll find he has little or no patent protection because of the prior art.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-13, 09:24 PM   #28
linus
Crawler
 
linus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: OH~ CANADA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Axle flex. Cantilevering.
linus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-13, 12:04 AM   #29
Dux_Helm
Senior Member
 
Dux_Helm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver,BC
Bikes: Cannondale six-13, LarryvsHarry Bullitt (Cargo bike)
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Hence the "not so NEW.It's basically a remake of the Cinelli Bi-valent concept. I actually feel that executed well the idea has virtues, but feel bad for the "inventor" since if there's any success, he'll find he has little or no patent protection because of the prior art.

I was so curious about this idea, excited about it, that I actually called the inventor. Leonard. Nice, older guy.
Apparently he's been tinkering with this for years.
He has a full patent protection on it (5 different patents), so I suppose the solution must be different enough, or else the old patents expired..Or were not N.A patents.

Hope it works out for them. Hope to see it on some bikes soon.
Dux_Helm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-13, 12:19 AM   #30
FBinNY 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,828
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 859 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux_Helm View Post
I was so curious about this idea, excited about it, that I actually called the inventor. Leonard. Nice, older guy.
Apparently he's been tinkering with this for years.
He has a full patent protection on it (5 different patents), so I suppose the solution must be different enough, or else the old patents expired..Or were not N.A patents.
.
Once a patent expires the design passes into the public domain and cannot be patented anew. The fact that patents were issued doesn't mean anything. It could be that his attorney or the examiner didn't do decent enough research and find the prior art. Or he could have some narrow patents on specific details of the design.

Unfortunately about 30 or so years ago the US patent office changed the way they do business. Prior they used to resist issuing patents, carefully searching for prior art, or because the invention wasn't novel enough. Later they gave all that up, and would issue a patent on just about anything, leaving it up to the courts to review the various claims presented by litigants fighting or defending patents. Since then, the number of patents issued has skyrocketed, but the number not sustained has risen just as fast.

It's an expensive game where each side can easily spend 1/4 million dollars (for starters) arguing about patents, long after they've expired.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-13, 12:48 AM   #31
Kimmo
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Bikes: velospace.org/viewcluster?c=873
Posts: 7,115
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
It's a bloody nightmare.
Kimmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-13, 03:09 PM   #32
IthaDan 
Senior Member
 
IthaDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ithaca, NY
Bikes: Click on the #YOLO
Posts: 4,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Yeah, I don't like it - it's weaker, heavier, or both.
Pretty sure it's both.



(reposting this from another forum)

[in response to the increased dish of this system] ...As far as dish goes It's no different than a current shimano freehub. Because it is a [blue anodized] carbon copy of a shimano freehub- those are the same male splines on the hub body and that's a shimano freewheeling mechanism (those are tiny ball bearings you see on the outer ring, outside the keyway, maybe they removed a dust cover?):





The kicker is that with a solid axle system, number 13 on the schematic here threads into the barrel of the hub unifying the rotating parts of the hub's body and providing strength in tandem with the solid axle. This design forgoes the added strength of #13 there, and puts all the stress on the axle. The threading of the two axle halves needs to be coarse enough to tighten in few enough turns to keep the most ADD cyclists happy while providing enough purchase to provide the strength of the solid axle as well as the integrated rotating body of the hub shell and #13. I have a feeling he's using that blue hub for a couple of reasons- not only to add a little bling, because, let's face it, there's not a whole lot of desire in paying for a novel idea if you can't show it off, and axles aren't that sexy, and also because aftermarket hubs can not only be found with larger diameter axles (strength ++), but equipped with cartridge bearings (no preload requirement) as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is an added bearing inside the hub shell, there should be anyway- if not ALL the strength of the wheel relies on a press fit of the splines for the ratcheting mechanism- but I can't see it. If there isn't at least a third set of bearings past the two pictured in the diagram, then we're not just dealing with a poor design, we're dealing with a dangerous design.

I think the concept has merit as an idea, but it's nothing new. Hell the cinelli bivalent design was conceived to create a solution where a single wheel could serve as both a front or a rear wheel.

What frustrates me more than anything else is that there's really no reason (other than loose-ball bearing preload I guess, but cartridge bearings can surely be made to fit in shimano cups) that the HubDock solution couldn't exist as a retrofit axle for the gazillion shimano freehubs out in the wild already.

Am I missing something here?
__________________

Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang
IthaDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-13, 10:32 PM   #33
Kimmo
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Bikes: velospace.org/viewcluster?c=873
Posts: 7,115
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
Am I missing something here?
I'd say so; the whole point of this silly exercise is avoiding having to learn proper technique: it's epic fail from start to finish.
Kimmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-14, 06:33 PM   #34
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,591
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
I wouldn't be happy having the quick release handle facing forward like shown on the video; it's too easy for it to get caught and flipped open facing that way.
You have it backwards IMO. Having the rear qiuick release face forward is considered the safest way. The risk is having another bike come up behind you and flick open your quick release with its front wheel. That can't happen with the quick release pointed forward. I have been pointing my rear quick release that way for 30 years.
__________________
Robert

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-14, 06:37 PM   #35
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,591
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Once a patent expires the design passes into the public domain and cannot be patented anew. The fact that patents were issued doesn't mean anything. It could be that his attorney or the examiner didn't do decent enough research and find the prior art. Or he could have some narrow patents on specific details of the design.

Unfortunately about 30 or so years ago the US patent office changed the way they do business. Prior they used to resist issuing patents, carefully searching for prior art, or because the invention wasn't novel enough. Later they gave all that up, and would issue a patent on just about anything, leaving it up to the courts to review the various claims presented by litigants fighting or defending patents. Since then, the number of patents issued has skyrocketed, but the number not sustained has risen just as fast.

It's an expensive game where each side can easily spend 1/4 million dollars (for starters) arguing about patents, long after they've expired.
All true. Once something is known to the public, it can't be patented.
__________________
Robert

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-14, 06:41 PM   #36
FBinNY 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,828
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 859 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
You have it backwards IMO. Having the rear qiuick release face forward is considered the safest way. The risk is having another bike come up behind you and flick open your quick release with its front wheel. That can't happen with the quick release pointed forward. I have been pointing my rear quick release that way for 30 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
All true. Once something is known to the public, it can't be patented.
You had to dredge up a 1 year old thread just to add that? (sorry, it's only 364 days old)

Why?????
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-14, 06:48 PM   #37
Drew Eckhardt
Senior Member
 
Drew Eckhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
It's a lousy idea. Swapping a conventional wheel is faster, possible using hubs which don't cost $350, and doesn't require a 415 gram hub even when you want strain gauges and electronics for power measurement (Powertap G3 hubs are 330g and a conventional Shimano or Campagnolo skewer around 65g).

Removing a hubdock wheel means opening a quick release, unthreading/pulling out an axle, and dropping the wheel.

Installing one means setting the wheel in the drop-outs, threading the axle back in, adjusting the quick release, and tightening the quick release.

Removing a regular rear wheel means shifting to the small cog (two thumb shoves on current Campagnolo or one button press with new fangled electronic shifting ), flipping the quick release, and removing it while holding the derailleur out of the way.

Installing one means holding the derailleur out of the way, setting it in the drop-out, and flipping the quick release.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 02-26-14 at 06:52 PM.
Drew Eckhardt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04 PM.