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Old 02-22-13, 10:29 AM   #1
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no so NEW concept in bicycle hubs

here's another example of the short memories in the bicycle world.

The HubDock is presented as a new invention, but is actually a re-introduction of the 50 year old Cinelli Bi-valent hub.

Actually the concept is a great idea, if executed well. Hopefully current manufacturing technology will make it a possibility.
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Old 02-22-13, 10:34 AM   #2
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I like the concept. The convenience isn't enough to sway me. If the price point and durability were the same as traditional hubs I might be tempted.
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Old 02-22-13, 11:11 AM   #3
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In my early LBS days I worked for a shop that had a bit of a collection of older bikes. Mostly turn of the century to 1930s stuff. there were bikes with index shifting, full suspension, anatomical saddles, sealed bearings, fiber frames and rims, integrated bearings and more designs that the youth of today think they invented. Andy.
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Old 02-22-13, 11:17 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
In my early LBS days I worked for a shop that had a bit of a collection of older bikes. Mostly turn of the century to 1930s stuff. there were bikes with index shifting, full suspension, anatomical saddles, sealed bearings, fiber frames and rims, integrated bearings and more designs that the youth of today think they invented. Andy.
Absolutely. Plus ca change.....
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Old 02-22-13, 11:37 AM   #5
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Can't say that I see much point in it based on their video. I routinely take the rear wheel off my road bike when I transport it by car in the trunk and the wheel comes off faster than their demo with the Hubdock since I just have to flick open the quick release with no need to fiddle with multiple turns of the lever. Similar on installation - the regular QR needs no readjustment each time so it's a quicker process. A minor advantage I'd see would be that replacement of DS spokes would be much easier, but that doesn't need to be done very often. And if this design became very common it would simplify neutral wheel support in races since the gearing ratios and adjustment would be unaffected - but it seems unlikely to gain that high a market penetration.

Lots of bicycle ideas keep getting reinvented - recumbent frame styles, paired spoke wheels, airless tires, non-circular chainrings, belt and shaft drives, etc. Sometimes they're successful due to some critical advance, but most fade away just to be rediscovered later.

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Old 02-22-13, 01:27 PM   #6
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Here is the comment in the web site that I found most interesting (my emphasis):
Quote:
A pledge of US$379 will get you a clear-anodized HubDock, when and if the funding goal is met.
So, for $380 you MAY get one of these.

Yeah, new or not, is an interesting concept but I want a lot of other riders to be the Guinea Pig for this thing before I spend any money on it. Let the early adopters work out the teething and durability issues. I'm not going to spend almost $400 to maybe be a beta tester.

As to old designs coming back as new ones, a lot of innovative ideas in many fields were thought of and even patented decades or centuries ago but were wholly impractical given the technology of the time. That is still happening and I'm sure a lot of today's "blue sky" ideas will be practical in the future but not yet.
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Old 02-22-13, 01:28 PM   #7
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Yea have your Heirs renew those patents, it works in Music.
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Old 02-22-13, 01:29 PM   #8
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I wouldn't be happy having the quick release handle facing forward like shown on the video; it's too easy for it to get caught and flipped open facing that way.
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Old 02-22-13, 01:44 PM   #9
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Yea have your Heirs renew those patents, it works in Music.
Your heirs can renew a copyright. Nobody can renew a patent.
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Old 02-22-13, 02:13 PM   #10
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Solution looking for a problem. There's a reason the idea faded away the first time it was introduced.

I.e. Is it really that hard to remove a rear wheel with the current standard? Answer: no, it is not... (at least until there are lawyer tabs at the rear dropouts...)

Only way I'm down with this concept is in a completely different application, one where the cassette lives outside the chain-/seat-stay. Then you could conceivably run a single sided system where there is one chain- and one seat-stay running down the drive side, wheel bolts on from the NDS, and the cassette lives outside the stays. Of course there would be resultant dish issues...
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Old 02-22-13, 02:16 PM   #11
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Your heirs can renew a copyright.
Not anymore. Initial copyright is for life of creator plus 70 years (75 years?), no need for renewal at any point, no renewal possible past that end date.

Well, at least until the next time Mickey Mouse is about to hit the public domain again...
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Old 02-22-13, 02:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
In my early LBS days I worked for a shop that had a bit of a collection of older bikes. Mostly turn of the century to 1930s stuff. there were bikes with index shifting, full suspension, anatomical saddles, sealed bearings, fiber frames and rims, integrated bearings and more designs that the youth of today think they invented. Andy.
Indeed. Even the Cinelli "Bivalent" echoes earlier efforts, e.g. the 1932 "Selbach-Timken" rear hub:

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Old 02-22-13, 02:26 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Only way I'm down with this concept is in a completely different application, one where the cassette lives outside the chain-/seat-stay. Then you could conceivably run a single sided system where there is one chain- and one seat-stay running down the drive side, wheel bolts on from the NDS, and the cassette lives outside the stays. Of course there would be resultant dish issues...
I saw an old MTB built this way over in C&V. The owner actually posted in Mechanics asking for help with the drum brakes it had. It's not only doable, it's been done.
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Old 02-22-13, 02:28 PM   #14
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Used on motorcycles for decades.
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Old 02-22-13, 03:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Here is the comment in the web site that I found most interesting (my emphasis):

So, for $380 you MAY get one of these.

Yeah, new or not, is an interesting concept but I want a lot of other riders to be the Guinea Pig for this thing before I spend any money on it. Let the early adopters work out the teething and durability issues. I'm not going to spend almost $400 to maybe be a beta tester.
Kickstarter doesn't charge anybody if the funding goal isn't met.
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Old 02-22-13, 04:33 PM   #16
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I'm in the 'more trouble than it's worth if you're not a noob' camp. Like third hand tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
In my early LBS days I worked for a shop that had a bit of a collection of older bikes. Mostly turn of the century to 1930s stuff. there were bikes with index shifting, full suspension, anatomical saddles, sealed bearings, fiber frames and rims, integrated bearings and more designs that the youth of today think they invented.
I'd love to come across such a collection... I'd love to have such a collection. As Hillrider says, a lot of those ideas didn't make a whole lot of sense until we had more modern materials and engineering, but IMO something like 80yo indexed gears just goes to show how stagnant and lazy bike tech was for so very many decades. Traditionalism be damned, along with the UCI.

Here's a concept that keeps coming back around but has never taken off, although I think this is the first production bike using it: Arte Tretta 2WD



#!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omiak View Post
Kickstarter doesn't charge anybody if the funding goal isn't met.
No, but you get charged for the delivered product, and Hillrider's saying he doesn't want to be paying to be a beta tester. Only so much prototyping can stand in for the experiences of early adopters...
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Old 02-22-13, 04:57 PM   #17
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Seems like its just asking for your axles to bend right at the seam between hub and cassette.
Kinda like how freewheel hubs used to do; till they got outdated by freehubs.
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Old 02-22-13, 05:03 PM   #18
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Yeah, I don't like it - it's weaker, heavier, or both.
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Old 02-23-13, 09:13 AM   #19
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I saw an old MTB built this way over in C&V. The owner actually posted in Mechanics asking for help with the drum brakes it had. It's not only doable, it's been done.
Ooo...

What should I search on to dig up the relevant old threads...?
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Old 02-23-13, 11:02 AM   #20
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Wouldn't a frame with no stays on the non-drive-side be a better solution to this problem that doesn't really exist for most people:


Click here for more info.
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Old 02-23-13, 11:33 AM   #21
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As I was re oiling my chain I was thinking , its a good thing the brake disc,
is on the opposite side of the wheel, or surely the oil would find it's way into the brake pads..
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Old 02-23-13, 04:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Here is the comment in the web site that I found most interesting (my emphasis):

So, for $380 you MAY get one of these.
If the funding goal is unreached Kickstarter returns your money instead of forwarding to the company. Since the company in question has already built prototypes and contracted for manufacturing you'll either get nothing for $0 or a hub for $380 + options.

The product being an answer in search of a question is a separate more significant issue.

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Old 02-23-13, 05:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post

Finally !! This is perfect for people looking for a heavier bike that will also grease their left leg.
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Old 02-24-13, 01:54 PM   #24
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Dirty hands? With a little practice you can take the rear wheel off and put it on again without touching the derailleur or chain.
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Old 02-24-13, 06:30 PM   #25
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A couple of folks did this in the 50s for hubs used with Cyclo or Nivex derailleurs. Complicated and expensive, but it made sense with those derailleurs because they're mounted well ahead of the axle and you often wound up wrestling the cogs past them to remove the wheel.

BSA even had a IGH like this - great for fixing flats on bikes with full chaincases.
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