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Old 04-05-13, 10:04 PM   #1
episodic
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Serious injury death warning on my new pedals - question

Bought some eggbeater 1's to put on my salsa road bike. I had some older diadora road shoes that have the three hole pattern AND the 2 hole pattern. Way back when, I used them for a while with SPD mountain cleats.

On my eggbeater instructions it says serious injury or death can occur if you use the eggbeaters with road shoes. There isn't really any clarification after that. Is this for people that will try to 'bolt' one cleat hole to one of the three holes on a shoe wiggling around and all - on a shoe without both bolt patterns? Or is there something more ominous, I'm not aware of.

Thanks.
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Old 04-05-13, 11:08 PM   #2
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It may be the bolt-pattern issue, but some road shoes do have both bolt patterns with threaded inserts.

Also keep in mind that anything that causes unintended release or failure to release could indeed cause death.

Something to think about!

One more thing about road shoes is the absence of tread to either side of the recessed cleat, and most SPD-type pedals have this tread making contact with and bearing load against the body of the pedal, and thus stabilizing the shoe/pedal interface.

Without this tread, who knows?

Maybe the cleat would disengage from the added lateral movement.

Maybe the loops on the Eggbeater pedal would break from the leverage of the added movement, or bend and then fail to release properly.

I've had shoes that cracked straight across the cleat area, which made for very difficult release.
Replacing the shoe and not correcting the compensation adjustments to the pedal's tension screw (that I had made while using the failing shoe) caused my new shoe to silently come out of the pedal while sprinting, and my foot went into the front spokes. I got pitched off the side of the bike as the rotating wheel lifted my right foot suddenly after the cleat snagged on a spoke.
Luckily the bike slowed quite a bit from the resistance before I came off, and unbelieveably I barely had a scratch but sustained a mild concussion from getting booted in the head by a passing rider's clipped-in foot! I finished the ride on my mostly un-damaged bike.

Another sprinting episode ended when my Ergo shifter over-shifted a bit while accelerating, causing a gross, sudden slippage of the drivetrain.
My foot came un-clipped, the toe of my new Sidi shoe getting a bit of road-rash to the toe as the bike veered suddenly to the right.
I stayed on, and had wisely pulled well ahead of a couple of other riders before unleashing most of what I had, so the shoe's appearance (and my nerve) were the only casualties that time.
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Old 04-05-13, 11:18 PM   #3
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Seems like a lot of bike parts have the standard "cause injury or death if misused" warning now. If you think it is good enough, go for it. A pedal/cleat disengagement could definitely cause a crash, but if you are satisfied with the cleat-to-shoe mounting I would use it. If that is good, the cleat-to-pedal relationship should be fine. The fact that the manufacturer warns against "road shoes" is what makes the warning so useless. It's not like they give a good definition.

I wonder how many of these warnings I've violated over the years..
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Old 04-06-13, 08:15 AM   #4
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Special cleats for road shoes http://www.crankbrothers.com/accesso...hole_cleat.php I'm just guessing but as mentioned the warning is for the road shoes that don't mount flush against the eggbeaters like mountain shoes do with their recessed mount in the sole and may not release properly and cause your foot to rock on the pedal. In the sue happy US mfrs have to put labels like this on everything since there are people that would sue the company that made their mattress because they fell out of their bed after a long night at the bar.
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Old 04-06-13, 09:10 AM   #5
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FWIW, there are some good quality road shoes that also have both 3-hole and a 2-hole pattern that fit spd and eggbeater cleats. This doesn't address the issue of lateral support. I have a pair of Louis Garneau shoes like this, though I'm using 3 hole Look type cleats on them.

I've used eggbeaters on mtbs and the road before, but for no major reason have gone back to and prefer spds to eggbeaters where I use mtb pedals. That 3 to 2 hole CB adapter in the previous post looks pretty cool though for a more walkable road/touring setup. I hadn't seen that before.
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Old 04-06-13, 09:33 AM   #6
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I bet it has as much to do with someone slipping on a granite floor while walking in road shoes with metal cleats as anything on the riding end of the potential usage.

Those little rubber pontoons actually work reasonably well.
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Old 04-06-13, 09:49 AM   #7
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It's for fools that use SPD Eggbeaters on hard slick bottomed Road shoes.

if you miss the cleat with a rubber outsole SPD shoe,

at least your foot wont slide off the pedal like it's Glare Ice.
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Old 04-06-13, 12:15 PM   #8
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It may not be a shoe issue at all, but a CYA disclaimer against use on the road. Pedals made for mtb are more prone to unannounced premature release than ones designed for road. This is especially true at high loads like when sprinting, powering up a short grade, or a jumping hard start like coming off a red light. Premature release is never good, but it can be much worse if it causes you to swerve into traffic.

I've tried some mtb pedals for my commuter so I could use shoes better suited to walking (I do errands on my way home). After a few nasty surprises I went back to toe clips and straps (my Look road shoes aren't suited to shopping).
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Old 04-06-13, 03:17 PM   #9
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Given all of the "WARNING!!! Serious injury or death may result if......." entries in a typical owner's manual, it's amazing that anyone ever gets on a new bike.

We live in a litigious society. Warning disclaimers may help shield, or at least minimize, liability from the heirs of Darwin award contenders.
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Old 04-06-13, 04:03 PM   #10
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SPD is Shimano's clipless system, Eggbeaters are completely different.

SPD pedals can be used with road or mountain shoes. I prefer mountain shoes as I like to be able to walk

these days, on my hybrid commuter, I use pin platform pedals. great grip, no messing around with special shoes.
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Old 04-07-13, 07:06 AM   #11
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I was told its because there are well established 'roadie rules' for acceptable road footware. Look and SPD SL are expected and required. Anything else is unacceptable and may result in a rather violent and life threatening confrontation on a group ride with properly attired roadies. Roadies tend to be very image conscious, territorial and have a distinct pecking order.
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Old 04-07-13, 10:06 AM   #12
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hahahaahaha. can I bill you for the coffee stains on my screen now?


re: roadies and image. years ago I lived on the Monterey Peninsula on the California central coast. While I had a proper road bike, and even some proper road bike attire (woolies back then), complete with properly cleated italian bicycle shoes, I also had a 'cruiser' I'd outfitted with relatively lightweight parts (alloy bars, seat post, 3 piece crankset), running 26x1.75 relatively slick tires, bmw platform pedals (hey, old KKT Lightnings!). oh, and a wide range 5 speed freewheel. there was this one bunch of roadies who got all dressed up in team gear, to ride their high end custom built euro-trash bikes every sunday.... all campy etc of course. well, these guys really couldn't ride for squat, and when I showed up on my beat-to-death Motobecane Grand Record I'd drop them before we got out of Pacific Grove, boring. so I showed up on the cruiser, wearing some shaggy cuttoff jean shorts, lavadome hiking sneakers, and a bright tie-die t-shirt, long hair flying in the wind.... man did I get some evil looks when I passed them all going up the fairly steel Forest St hill out of GP

the way that cruiser was setup, I could grab the bars down by the stem, and rest my elbows on the grips, and it was a good full tuck position, so I could get some serious downhill speed going too. geared with a 46T front, I had a 5 speed 13-32 rear, big steps but wide range.

anyways, hah, I was told my longhair skanky a$$ just didn't belong with proper riders attired like that and I didn't have the right 'tude or something.
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Old 04-07-13, 01:21 PM   #13
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re: roadies and image. years ago I lived on the Monterey Peninsula on the California central coast. While I had a proper road bike, and even some proper road bike attire (woolies back then), complete with properly cleated italian bicycle shoes, I also had a 'cruiser' I'd outfitted with relatively lightweight parts (alloy bars, seat post, 3 piece crankset), running 26x1.75 relatively slick tires, bmw platform pedals (hey, old KKT Lightnings!). oh, and a wide range 5 speed freewheel. there was this one bunch of roadies who got all dressed up in team gear, to ride their high end custom built euro-trash bikes every sunday.... all campy etc of course. well, these guys really couldn't ride for squat, and when I showed up on my beat-to-death Motobecane Grand Record I'd drop them before we got out of Pacific Grove, boring. so I showed up on the cruiser, wearing some shaggy cuttoff jean shorts, lavadome hiking sneakers, and a bright tie-die t-shirt, long hair flying in the wind.... man did I get some evil looks when I passed them all going up the fairly steel Forest St hill out of GP

the way that cruiser was setup, I could grab the bars down by the stem, and rest my elbows on the grips, and it was a good full tuck position, so I could get some serious downhill speed going too. geared with a 46T front, I had a 5 speed 13-32 rear, big steps but wide range.

anyways, hah, I was told my longhair skanky a$$ just didn't belong with proper riders attired like that and I didn't have the right 'tude or something.
Continuing in the same vein, my university's cycling club give off the same vibe, and since I'm a fairly easy target for what might be referred to as "sporting discrimination", I wasn't too suprised when they decided to drop me on the introductory ride they did during the first week of term. They underestimated how much of an advantage my rigid MTB had over their skinny-tyred road bikes on the bad roads around here (i.e. I could pedal across crappy tarmac where they were standing up and coasting), and I managed to hang on to the back of their ride for several miles, which apparently annoyed them immensely.

I now ride with the local branch of the CTC instead, as they're much more tolerant of non-roadies.

As for my take on the OP's problem, if you're mounting the cleats to shoes that are designed for them to fit on, I'm not sure how that's going to end up being dangerous... I did once get told that fitting a Halfords folding bike with a Sturmey-Archer three-speed hub "could be dangerous" as well once, to be fair, so I think "dangerous" is a relative term here.
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Old 04-07-13, 01:26 PM   #14
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Old 04-07-13, 02:07 PM   #15
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Just dont miss the cleat.. I wouldn't commute on that lash Up. in stop And go traffic.
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Old 04-07-13, 04:09 PM   #16
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I was told its because there are well established 'roadie rules' for acceptable road footware. Look and SPD SL are expected and required. Anything else is unacceptable and may result in a rather violent and life threatening confrontation on a group ride with properly attired roadies. Roadies tend to be very image conscious, territorial and have a distinct pecking order.
I've talked with my LBS employees ad naseum about my preference for SPD, both for pedal engagement and walkability. They are very polite and they try not to make me feel like the oddball out, but they are simply stuck in their mold that road shoes, road cleats, and road pedals should only be used on road bikes.

As others have mentioned, I've passed many many road "purists" in their "more efficient" setups. I'd like to see exactly what the power advantage is with road pedals/shoes - some hard data. With my carbon-soled MTB shoes, I don't see the argument.
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Old 04-07-13, 04:32 PM   #17
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I've talked with my LBS employees ad naseum about my preference for SPD, both for pedal engagement and walkability. They are very polite and they try not to make me feel like the oddball out, but they are simply stuck in their mold that road shoes, road cleats, and road pedals should only be used on road bikes.

As others have mentioned, I've passed many many road "purists" in their "more efficient" setups. I'd like to see exactly what the power advantage is with road pedals/shoes - some hard data. With my carbon-soled MTB shoes, I don't see the argument.
I don't think anyone (or any sane person) claims that road cleat systems are any more efficient than mtn systems. For me it's strictly a question of engagement reliability. Road systems when properly set up release only with a positive foot twist, and are nearly bulletproof against premature release under power. IME, and IMO mtn systems are somewhat more prone to release on vertical lift, and could (and have) release without warning. This is less of a crisis off road than it might be on road.

There may also be legal considerations for a manufacturer if his liability policy is rated based on reduced risks of mtn vs. road riding (don't know if such policy restrictions exist, just positing it), so the maker writes in disclaimer language.
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Old 04-07-13, 04:42 PM   #18
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I don't think anyone (or any sane person) claims that road cleat systems are any more efficient than mtn systems.
There are PLENTY of sane people that claim road cleat systems are more efficient.
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Old 04-07-13, 04:56 PM   #19
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I've talked with my LBS employees ad naseum about my preference for SPD, both for pedal engagement and walkability. They are very polite and they try not to make me feel like the oddball out, but they are simply stuck in their mold that road shoes, road cleats, and road pedals should only be used on road bikes.

As others have mentioned, I've passed many many road "purists" in their "more efficient" setups. I'd like to see exactly what the power advantage is with road pedals/shoes - some hard data. With my carbon-soled MTB shoes, I don't see the argument.
Probably more about weight and stiffness than SPD vs SPD SL. Pure competition road shoes are a few hundred grams lighter and a bit stiffer than the best SPD combination. But really only make sense for competition. No competition level Shimano road shoe will take SPD cleats.

You might want to ask your LBS guys about Shimano Pontoon Adapters - they're a specific adaptor (SM-SH40) for using SPD cleats with road shoes with smooth outsoles such as is usually found on Sport, and some Triathlon and Multisport shoes. Some shoes will obviously take either SPD or SPD SL systems, some will take only one or the other.

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Old 04-07-13, 05:00 PM   #20
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Given all of the "WARNING!!! Serious injury or death may result if......." entries in a typical owner's manual, it's amazing that anyone ever gets on a new bike.

We live in a litigious society. Warning disclaimers may help shield, or at least minimize, liability from the heirs of Darwin award contenders.
The manual for my bike (bought new in 2009) described all sorts of scenarios that might cause me to "lose control and fall", some of which might "cause serious injury or death". Which was surprising, since losing control and falling anywhere near a cliff edge would definitely cause serious injury or death, so on that basis anything that caused me to "lose control and fall" would carry the potential risk of death.
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Old 04-07-13, 05:02 PM   #21
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Probably more about weight and stiffness than SPD vs SPD SL. Pure competition road shoes are a few hundred grams lighter and a bit stiffer than the best SPD combination. But really only make sense for competition. No competition level Shimano road shoe will take SPD cleats.

You might want to ask your LBS guys about Shimano Pontoon Adapters - they're a specific adaptor (SM-SH40) for using SPD cleats with road shoes with smooth outsoles such as is usually found on Sport, and some Triathlon and Multisport shoes. Some shoes will obviously take either SPD or SPD SL systems, some will take only one or the other.
I rode the pontoon adapters for several years. They didn't address my walkability or entry requirements, so I recently switched to a carbon MTB shoe - which I believe is the best of all worlds (at least for me).

BTW, my carbon MTB shoes are 100g lighter than my carbon road shoes. Of course, I had pontoons ... anyway, it's a wash.

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Old 04-07-13, 05:05 PM   #22
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The manual for my bike (bought new in 2009) described all sorts of scenarios that might cause me to "lose control and fall", some of which might "cause serious injury or death". Which was surprising, since losing control and falling anywhere near a cliff edge would definitely cause serious injury or death, so on that basis anything that caused me to "lose control and fall" would carry the potential risk of death.
My Cannondale manual says "you might die" on every other page. If you had never been on a bicycle prior to reading, you'd think it was the most dangerous activity EVER conceived. Thank god for lawyers!
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Old 04-07-13, 05:17 PM   #23
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You guys realize that if you breath the air and drink the water on the earth you will eventually get old and die in the future.... Don't worry about it. The warning sounds like standard lawyer "speak" that tha manufacturers liability lawyers insisted that they pu them on their pedals, just in case of that "freak accident".....
Thousands of riders use the "Eggbeaters" on the road and still live long normal lives......
Anyway, if they are indeed "dangerous", I would think the CPSC would not let it be sold to the biking public at all, or a recall would have been issued on them many years ago.....
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Old 04-07-13, 06:52 PM   #24
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One more thing about road shoes is the absence of tread to either side of the recessed cleat, and most SPD-type pedals have this tread making contact with and bearing load against the body of the pedal, and thus stabilizing the shoe/pedal interface.

Without this tread, who knows?

Maybe the cleat would disengage from the added lateral movement.

Maybe the loops on the Eggbeater pedal would break from the leverage of the added movement, or bend and then fail to release properly.
I curious that most missed this obvious issue. The SPD system shoe that is the industry standard uses a raised tread to support the pedal when attached to the cleat. The "Quattro Cleat" comes with it's own platform that takes the place of the raised tread. Without this raised tread, the shoe/cleat will rattle around on the pedal unsupported and completely compromising the release system.

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Old 04-07-13, 06:53 PM   #25
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I rode the pontoon adapters for several years. They didn't address my walkability or entry requirements, so I recently switched to a carbon MTB shoe - which I believe is the best of all worlds (at least for me).

BTW, my carbon MTB shoes are 100g lighter than my carbon road shoes. Of course, I had pontoons ... anyway, it's a wash.
I think the comment was "No competition level Shimano road shoe will take SPD cleats." which means you couldn't have had Pontoons on any competition grade Shimano road shoe. I think the number to beat last year was 748g. Thats for a pair of Shimano pedals and road shoes together.
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