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  1. #1
    Senior Member Fangowolf's Avatar
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    Wheelbuilding (Spokes to long)

    I am building my first wheel and I think my spokes may be a bit to long. All spokes are now in the nipple slot and it looks like Some of the spokes are going to surpass the nipple itself. There are still spokes that are moving with very little pressure applied.

    On average should the spokes stop before the slot?


    I'm mainly asking so that I can estimate what spoke length I should order to replace these. I'm thinking I should shorten them by about 5mm - 10mm. The rims are Velocity Triple V 20" and the hub is not labeled but are 12mm through axles. I tried to use the spoke length formula, but it looks like I measured something wrong along the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangowolf View Post
    ...it looks like some of the spokes are going to surpass the nipple itself. There are still spokes that are moving with very little pressure applied.

    On average should the spokes stop before the slot?


    I'm mainly asking so that I can estimate what spoke length I should order to replace these.
    Do not estimate spoke length. Before you do anything else make sure you have laced correctly. If you have laced both sides and all the spokes are not sticking out the same amount you have made a common error of putting the first spoke(s) in the second flange in the wrong hole. Go to Sheldon's instructions to check your work. http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

    If they are all sticking out the same amount then recheck all your measurements and what you input. You can try a different spoke calculator, but they all use the same geometrical calculation - would never be off by as much as you are saying.
    Last edited by cny-bikeman; 04-08-13 at 08:01 AM.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  3. #3
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    Do you have the right number of crosses for the wheel you are builing? If you add one more cross it in effect makes the spokes shorter. Roger

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
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    OR-
    Are you using the correct number of crosses?
    If calculated for 3X-
    2X will be about 6mm too long
    1X would be about 11mm too long.

    IF 1/4 or 1/2 are noticeably longer, refer to post #2.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Fangowolf's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,
    Yes all the spokes are now "in the slot" I'd say about 1/3 of the spokes are still too loose, about a third are close. The loose spokes are not all on the same side. My first spoke was next to the tube stem hole and the hole was offset towards the flange's side.

    Crosses. I'm doing the over, over under and then the hole offset towards the current flange.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangowolf View Post
    Thanks guys,
    Yes all the spokes are now "in the slot" I'd say about 1/3 of the spokes are still too loose, about a third are close. The loose spokes are not all on the same side. My first spoke was next to the tube stem [valve] hole and the hole was offset towards the flange's side.

    Crosses. I'm doing the over, over under and then the hole offset towards the current flange.
    The loose spokes will not be on the same side, but in the same direction (clockwise/counterclockwise). As I said, if some are protruding more than others you have laced incorrectly. Note that the first spoke goes next to the valve hole when you are working with the flange up (toward you) and the hole is offset upward as well. Other wise it goes 2 away.
    Last edited by cny-bikeman; 04-08-13 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Edited to reflect possibility of 1st/key spoke error
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Fangowolf's Avatar
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    For the second flange I picked the hole just to the left of the First spoke and it went to the hole two away from the tube stem hole. I was following Russ Musson's pdf. Of course it is possible I picked the wrong flange hole.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Fangowolf's Avatar
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    I found my post with my measurements
    The spoke calculators (if I am doing it right) say I should use 188.2mm Spokes
    ERD 395 (Velocity triple V 20")
    Hub Flange Diameter 46mm
    Hub center to flange center (not the drive wheel) the hub is 60mm wide (no lock nuts) so I used 30mm
    Hub spoke hole diameter 2.5mm
    36 spokes
    3x pattern

    calculates to 188.2

    little worried about the Hub center measurement

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
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    Even if your hub width was off a few mm, it wouldn't make too much of a difference.
    A 70mm wide hub would only be about a 1mm longer spoke.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangowolf View Post
    For the second flange I picked the hole just to the left of the First spoke and it went to the hole two away from the tube stem hole. I was following Russ Musson's pdf. Of course it is possible I picked the wrong flange hole.
    It does not matter what you thought you did or whose instructions you were using. If some spokes are too long you did it wrong, period.

    Some instructions don't properly advise on dealing with rims that have a different offset arrangement next to the valve hole, sometimes those following instructions miss the difference, or go right/left looking from the bottom of the hub rather than the top. Even the 1st/key spoke can be put in wrong if you are not working with the flange that is toward you (see my edited post above).

    You asked for advice and you're getting it (I've built hundreds of wheels and instructed dozens on wheelbuiilding/truing). Instead of explaining what you did just get the wheel in your hands, figure out what is incorrect and fix it.
    Last edited by cny-bikeman; 04-08-13 at 09:20 AM.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  11. #11
    Senior Member Fangowolf's Avatar
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    Thanks for your advice cny
    I will recheck everything tonight. It sounds like my placements were okay, but I will recheck tonight. I might go ahead a true the wheel and see where all the spokes wind up to see if it is all the spokes or just certain spokes that wind up above the nipple. Probably good practice anyway.
    Last edited by Fangowolf; 04-08-13 at 12:26 PM.

  12. #12
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    It also sounds to me that the lacing isn't correct. In addition to instructions available at sheldonbrown.com check the instructions in Jobst Brandt's book "The Bicycle Wheel". If you don't want to buy the book check it out from the library and copy the pages with instructions for lacing 3-cross.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Fangowolf's Avatar
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    I went by the shop today and the wheel builder said I had the lacing okay. It turns out I had the erd wrong. Evidently for my wheel the erd is 390 not 395 and the hub center was 28mm. I had 189mm spokes and he said I needed 185mm. I think that will keep my spokes in the nipple. Sorry about that guys.

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