Kimmo 

Okay, so my boss has a new bike with a 5700 group, and he got me to wrap some tape on his bars (did another wrap over his existing tape). IME it's always been easier to pull the bars off the bike to do this job, so I didn't think twice about it.

Mistake... first thing I didn't think of was the exposed tracks for the gear cables under the tape, meaning that while tape is on the bike, replacing the cables is a massive PITA if they're not new, with the welded end. So, I used new cables. I'm thinking next time, I'll leave the cables in and just coil them up.

...Except bugger that, if a Shimano 10s bike is working, there's no way I'm touching the rear cable in future; turns out it's impossible to get this bike to shift again.

I remember being surprised how well the bike shifted beforehand, given Shimano's stupidly short cable pull and the no-name shift housing; seems I was right to be, now that I've mysteriously upset its precarious balance. The symptoms are what you'd expect from insufficient signal-to-noise in the cable system; signs of both springiness (when it's tuned to shift as well as possible, pulling the cable a click can result in absolutely no movement of the derailer), and friction (shifts to smaller cogs often require the two steps forward, one back hassle, particularly on the end of the cassette). The RD loop was then replaced with a slightly longer one of some Jagwire stuff and the inner replaced again just to be sure, with fresh lube in the housings. Cable friction at the end of the RD loop felt not great, but not anywhere near as terrible as you'd expect from watching the shifting fail. RD return spring felt nice and snappy; it's a new bike. Checked the hanger, it was fine. At several points I hauled on the shifter without pedalling to bed in the housings, with no improvement in consistency.

The only things I can think of to improve it (short of $$$ segmented housing) would be steel ferrules and a drawn cable, but I'm pretty sure the original cable was plain SS, and once the plastic ferrules have broken in to the housing ends I can't see them causing much trouble...

I'm stumped, guys. Is it common to have hassles with Shimano 10s bikes, or am I missing something in front of my nose here?

Metaluna

I remember when Shimano first introduced the x700 and 7900 groups with under-tape shift routing, one of the knocks on it from the reviews I read was that shifting crispness was not as good as the older groups.

I have one bike with 6700, and I have had similar issues. My problems were mostly fixed by straightening the derailleur hanger, and replacing the shift cable and housing loop on the RD, though, so I can't think of what could be wrong beyond that. But even now my indexing isn't perfect up and down the cassette (just from visual inspection with the chain off). I'm using a long cage MTB RD and an 11-32 cassette, so that might factor in, and it shifts pretty well most of the time.

Which way are you routing the shift cable? In front or behind the bars? I guess one thing you could try is to switch that routing to the other option. I seem to recall that one of them has a slightly less bent path. Probably behind the bars (i.e. the side closer to the rider). Other than that, maybe the 5700 shift lever is just going bad, or has become gummed up internally for some reason.

Kimmo 

53 views and nobody has anything to add?

Can anyone confirm S10 is either a really bad idea as I suspect, or insist I must be missing something?

...Oops, there's someone now.

As I mentioned, the bike is virtually new, so the shifters seem to be working perfectly.

The cables are using the inner path; I'd say it is a good idea to switch them to the outer one if/when it comes to unwrapping the bars and replacing the housing.

But the bike was shifting just fine until I pulled the bars off to wrap them.

Metaluna

It sounds like you've covered most of the ferrule issues but one place to check is where the housing enters the shifter. I can't remember if Shimano requires a ferrule there or not, but if the bike shop did it the wrong way, or the housing isn't firmly seated, that could be an issue. If it were an older shifter I'd say look for broken strands of cable in the shift path or jamming the internal indexing mechanisms, maybe blow it out with compressed air or something. Beyond that, maybe try 1.1mm shift cable to reduce friction (e.g. SRAM Pit Stops)?

Other than that, it's the usual stuff: make sure all housing ends are cut cleanly, everything is firmly seated in their cable stops, the cables are running smoothly through the under-BB-guide, the downtube barrel adjuster isn't loose or jamming the cable in some way, and the shift cable is attached to the pinch bolt on the RD with the correct routing.

I'm not a huge fan of Shimano shifting, but they would be out of business if it were this bad normally. It clearly works much better than this the vast majority of the time.

Kimmo 

Another guy had a quick look at it and cut away some of the tape under the hoods; afterwards I had a squiz and it certainly looked as if the ferrule was firmly butted into the shifter.

Check, check, check, check, check.

That's what I would have thought, or at least hoped. After I noticed the need for quality housing when I went from 8s to 9s, I was pretty much convinced 10s with the same derailer geometry was a silly idea...

But yeah, it shouldn't be so bad that I can pull a click and not even see the derailer move. That's after adjusting the trim, and not necessarily even off the smallest cog, it can happen anywhere near the end of the cassette.

It must be something obvious, but there's nothing obvious

FBinNY 

Kimmo,

You simply don't get it. Shimano has a hidden agenda.

The future is Di2 electronic shifting, so they're intentionally making cable systems frustrating so that Di2 looks that much better.

Kimmo 

That had definitely occurred to me, but I did wonder if it wasn't just a little far-fetched, given SRAM is there to show them up (Campy pulls more cable than Shimano too, but SRAM pulls heaps).

I don't suppose you've worked on many S10 bikes, FB?

cny-bikeman

The "advancement" to 10 rear cogs is of questionable benefit as it is, even less so given the overwhelming tendency to just add smaller cogs, even in the case of wide range cassettes, where smaller jumps would be of greater benefit.

Kimmo 

I know, huh? Sh*ts me to tears. If they did that, it'd open up a bunch of mix'n'match possibilities too.

FBinNY 

A few and didn't see any real or unusual issues. Most of my friends ride Shimano, and a decent number of those are on 10s, and I've never heard any of them squark. Except for those with internal cables, but that's another issue entirely.

BTW- I've done many Campy index systems, where the cables have always been under the tape. I set these all up with electrical tape at three points on the main bend plus one near the bulge, get everything working the way I want, then tape when completely finished, or in many cases tell the owner to tape his own. (My rule is that if you can't fix a flat, mount wheels, and tape bars, you should sell the bike and take up golf.

Kimmo 

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I want to see what's going on under the tape.

As I said, I only taped over the existing tape to make a double wrap.

FBinNY 

I hope you figured out I was kidding about Shimano's secret agenda.

In any case, a very common mistake folks make is they set the bike up, then when taping the bars, end up pulling the housing away form the seat in the lever as they push it into the bend. Make sure not to do that, by tensioning the cable and putting one turn of E-tape near the lever, then pushing the housing toward the lever as you tape into the bends. Once all is good and secured, the normal wrapping of the bars won't change anything.

oldskoolwrench

I just set up an Aegis Aero Svelte with D/A 7800 10 speed from scratch, and everything went pretty smoothly. I used a Jagwire Road Cable set, and the cables set up very nicely. Shifting was very crisp, and hit every gear cleanly but boy the indexing adjustment is VERY fine!

The only thing that I wasn't impressed with was the 'mesh' between the chain and the cassette cogs; I felt it was a little rough. The customer rode the bike home though, and was very satisfied with the bike.

I dunno... 10 speed is a nice innovation, but 7 and 8 speed drive trains work just fine for me.

Phydiox

sounds like you dont have the cable end seated properly inside the shifter. this is not obvious to the naked eye and can cause some aggravating problems. good luck with your issues. let us know when you find the problem.

oldbobcat

Obviously.

In my opinion the 5600-6600-7800 series was a vast improvement over 9-speed, especially in regard to the triples. The time I've spent trying to get enough tension on the cable to hit the middle ring, only to have the front derailleur hit the crank when shifting to the big ring, is vast. 7800 is a true workhorse for racers and anybody who rides a lot in any conditions. The only real problem was at the 105 level, using 5600 triple front levers for double ring applications. Shimano began offering a double 5600 lever mid-run.

Of the 5700-6700-7900 series, I think 5700 was a definite improvement, 6700 is fussier than 6600--you need to make sure every cable is routed straight as possible and the housing ends are seated correctly, but properly done I think it's a bit slicker than 6600. 7900 had teething problems that Shimano corrected mid-run. Many early shifters were replaced by Shimano under warranty.

Replacing shift cables on these new levers is a pain. You can improve shifting, though, by routing cables around the back of the bar and creating a larger radius bend. A lot of manufacturers do it the other way because that's where the recesses in the bar are, or because it's quicker to wrap the handlebar with the brake and shift cables under the tape together.

Kimmo 

Yeah, I was thinking I'd reroute the housings around the back.

Did a flat bar 9s bike yesterday, fresh chain, cassette and gear housing, and even with the flat bar cable routing (housing lengths revised for minimal friction), and even on 9s a brand new cable had too much friction.

Ended up putting the guy's original cable back, which was 1.1mm instead of 1.2mm (I guess), and felt maybe a bit smoother.

Gotta get my boss to get some nicer cables.

Pretty sure that's not it.

reptilezs

it is best to use the shimano cable kits when cabling a 10 spd road group. retail about 50. the new 11sp road and 10s mtn have different cable pull ratios

kv501

Not true.

I've recabled 5 Shimano 10s that I can think of off the top of my head, 2 of them were mine when I first got 5700, and once this spring.

All of them were with Jagwire kits and all worked just fine. Like Metaluna alluded to Shimano wouldn't sell groups by the truck load if it didn't work well. In my opinion the reason you hear people say it doesn't work is because people don't speak up on the internet when things work, and they do when things go bad. My 5700 and 6700 bikes are both routed to the front of the bar and I have no issues at all. This spring I had issues with one of those bikes only wanting to shift well in either the top or bottom half, but the hanger needed to be straightened and it ran perfectly after that.

I am in the group of people who think the more speeds the better, and as long as you set it up well to begin with everything's good. My ideal cassette would be 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25. I can get a 10 speed 11-25 or 12-25, but I give up the 11 or 16, both of which I use (or would use). I understand that some people don't want to make tolerances tighter because of reliability, but to me it's worth it I guess.

TiHabanero

Although this may sound silly, check the cable inside the shift lever. It sounds like it is not threaded into the lever properly.

gyozadude

+1 on TiHabenero's suggestion.

I'm one of the only guys I know that has done a precision re-thread on a Shimano 10spd right shifter withOUT re-wrapping. Poor guy came into my free clinic at work (during our lunch) and was sobbing about not shifting well and he had a 143mile ride this weekend on a tour of Mt. Hamilton. He said he took it to a first shop and they screwed it up, and then the co-op he took it to in San Jose messed it up even further and frayed the cable after the pinch bolt. I took a look and knew he was going to need new cable, possibly new housing, and I'd have to rethread the cable without a soldering iron. We're a big, friggin' hardware server company dammit, I was thinking and even I have soldering irons in the lab, but then we'd need like a 100ft extension cord to solder the tips on the cable to do a proper re-thread and I didn't even know if my generic derailleur cables were long enough. This was one of those under the wrap cable mounting jobs and I didn't have the cork tape in stock with my little portable clinic kit, and I'm thinking his 15 minute appointment slot ain't going to be enough. And to add, old-age sucks because you need bi-focals to thread it right but you can see jack squat close up. After 10 minutes of feeling, I threaded it proper with bare minimal damage to the tape, got the cable greased and into the housing, and it was just long enough by 2 inches to reach the RD. All housing seated properly, and then the hardest part was getting the brifter back onto the clamp with the bolt. That took 5 minutes of feel with allen key and pressure and some cussing. I thought the lever was going to fall off at some point on his ride.

But he's still riding this 10s shimano and he finished the ride without issues and shifting was still fine. Shifting is spot on, and he's happy. Well, I charged him $1 for the brake cable. He got free crimp cap and labour. And I'll never be that impressed with Shimano under-the-wraps brifters, and I'm now looking for a cordless soldering iron. PITA.

kv501

If he can't afford to re-tape bars once in a blue moon this is the wrong hobby to be in.

gyozadude

We're in tech, so he obviously makes plenty for a retape job. But the problem isn't paying. It was reliability and time. He had already taken the bike to multiple places to get the shifting fixed. They were not competent with new, under the bar brifters. And being I host a free clinic at work because I support a "bike-to-work" lifestyle on my 5000 person campus, I have lots of tubes and small parts, but I don't carry cork tape or many grips for that matter. I'm just a volunteer and I just provide a free service for my fellow co-workers.

The issue here in Silicon Valley is affordability and competency. You have a lot of folks who can sell you a bike, but few have the actual competence to fix it properly in a timely manner. And so people pay and pay and pay, and get very little value for bike service, and so they often quit biking to work. Our last bike clinic, I had 8 appointments booked in our short 2 hr slot. I serviced a couple of BSOs, and some really nice bikes, including one CF with Dura Ace. We get all kinds with many very nice bikes. The new fangled stuff is the hardest to service because it is so new and we witness how new it must be, because even the shops they bought their bikes from didn't do a very good job adjusting the components. And while some of us are into new fangled parts and we do have some exceptional engineers that all bike, few of us have ever serviced under-the-wraps brifters. I'm riding SS/fixie and friction barcons most of the time so I rarely ever see any of the new stuff except at these volunteer clinics, and most of those road biker dudes call me a retro-grouch (I ride bridgestones, duh). But I'm the lead mechanic that supposedly has the most experience, and I get the (not so) fun part of trying to figure out how the heck the Shimano engineers did something. It's not a pleasant task, especially when a little investigation reveals that for a little better engineering, they could have made a component far more serviceable. As the thread is titled: "Spawn of Satan." Yeah, sometimes, I have to agree. Not all Shimano engineered things are great. My fishing reels are mostly Daiwa, Abu Garcia or Penn. Not Shimano.

reptilezs

i am not saying jagwire doesn't work because it does and jagwire is stock on a lot of bikes. i have found that the shimano kit works better

Kimmo 

I don't have any problem with more cogs per se, beyond it causing more dish (11s/130mm OLD is a bit dumb IMO; should have moved to 135mm), and making for super skinny chains that only last a few big rides... it means I can finally buy a cassette with an 18t sitting between a 17t and a 19t. And the skinny chains shift great, when the derailer knows what it's supposed to be doing.

Which is the crux of the issue with Shimano; because the 10s RD geometry is the same as 6s (supposedly, but in any case the overall pull:movement ratio is almost identical), each shift is controlled by a stupidly small amount of cable pull, and that information is readily drowned out by completely normal hysteresis in the cable system; I'd bet any bike requiring a full-length housing run is almost impossible to get working with Shimano's 10s road stuff. Although most bikes with full-length housing runs are MTBs - do you reckon it's a coincidence Shimano finally got around to revising the cable pull for their 10s MTB stuff?

It's a simple signal:noise equation. SRAM and Campy both get it; Campy has revised their pull ratio a few times over the last decade or two, despite originally having more cable pull than Shimano, and SRAM started off knowing Shimano's shortcomings by making compatible gear, so when they designed their own system they used about twice the cable pull IIRC. A Shimano derailer can happily shift 10 cogs with no reliability problems, but only if there's a Shiftmate right next to it hooked up to SRAM or Campy shifters. The stupidly small cable pull works just fine if it's only travelling over a couple of inches... I've got a 9s Mirage*-operated RD-7700 that I bet shifts better than it ever did with the ST-7700s.

*The 9s Mirage lever has this stupid float/overshift built in that I had to disable before it'd work sweetly.

onespeedbiker

I am by no means and expert with Shimano under the tape shifting cables, but most of what I read was critical of the cable routing coming off the shifter needing too sharp a turn leading to spongy shifting; because of that Shimano supposedly came up with their PTFE housing/cables to address the problem. While I'm sure other cables can be used, the PTFE apparently makes it easier. I also read that they are almost impossible to replace the housing without removing the bar tape first, as the shift housing will seemingly be anchored in the shifter butin actuality it will be about a mm short, but the sharp turn will make it seem it is anchored. It seems to me, if it's that big a deal, why don't you just start from scratch and remove all the old tape?