Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-25-05, 01:32 PM   #1
keevohn
laterally compliant
Thread Starter
 
keevohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PGH
Bikes:
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ergo 9 with Shimano 8: flogging a dead horse with a new weapon

Be warned, this is a "Can I make Ergopower work with my all-Shimano drivetrain?" question.

With a twist.

I'm interested to know whether anyone has used a rear 9-speed Ergopower shifter with a typical 8-speed Shimano cassette and Shimano derailleur. I understand that, if the stars properly align, 10-speed Ergopower nicely shifts 9-speed Shimano stuff, and I'm wondering if that translates back a generation.

Thanks in advance, and please keep the flames to a minimum. My fire-retardant clothing is in the wash
keevohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 03:19 PM   #2
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by keevohn
Be warned, this is a "Can I make Ergopower work with my all-Shimano drivetrain?" question.

With a twist.

I'm interested to know whether anyone has used a rear 9-speed Ergopower shifter with a typical 8-speed Shimano cassette and Shimano derailleur. I understand that, if the stars properly align, 10-speed Ergopower nicely shifts 9-speed Shimano stuff, and I'm wondering if that translates back a generation.

Thanks in advance, and please keep the flames to a minimum. My fire-retardant clothing is in the wash
The 10 campy to shimano 9 works with an alternate cable mount at the RD to change it's throw.
sydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 03:38 PM   #3
SoonerBent
<><
 
SoonerBent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oklahoma City
Bikes: RANS Tailwind
Posts: 768
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There is almost a half mm difference in cog spacing between 8 and 9 speed cassettes, so my guess would be no. If you already have, or are planning on getting 9 speed shifters why not just change to a 9 speed cassette?

SS
SoonerBent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 03:44 PM   #4
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by soonerschwinn
There is almost a half mm difference in cog spacing between 8 and 9 speed cassettes, so my guess would be no. If you already have, or are planning on getting 9 speed shifters why not just change to a 9 speed cassette?

SS
Actually, in this case it's only .25mm,but you have to toss differences in RD throw ratio into the mix.
sydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 03:44 PM   #5
keevohn
laterally compliant
Thread Starter
 
keevohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PGH
Bikes:
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney
The 10 campy to shimano 9 works with an alternate cable mount at the RD to change it's throw.
Right. As explained in this HubBub article: http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm

My question is if this trick works with Ergo 9/Shimano 8 as it does with Ergo 10/Shimano 9.

For it to work... I'm guessing it would depend on whether or not Ergo 9 and Ergo 10 used the same amount of cable travel per shift. My understanding of cable travel is that it is independent of how many speeds the bike has, based on the ability to use 9 speed STI levers with so-called '7' or '8' speed Shimano derailleurs.

If Ergopower shifters use the same amount of cable travel per shift, wouldn't it just become a matter of spacing the sprockets on my 8 speed Shimano cassette to match the spacing of a 9 speed Campy cassette? Specifically, swapping out the 3.0mm spacers with 2.75mm spacers?
keevohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 03:54 PM   #6
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by keevohn
Right. As explained in this HubBub article: http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm

My question is if this trick works with Ergo 9/Shimano 8 as it does with Ergo 10/Shimano 9.

For it to work... I'm guessing it would depend on whether or not Ergo 9 and Ergo 10 used the same amount of cable travel per shift. My understanding of cable travel is that it is independent of how many speeds the bike has, based on the ability to use 9 speed STI levers with so-called '7' or '8' speed Shimano derailleurs.

If Ergopower shifters use the same amount of cable travel per shift, wouldn't it just become a matter of spacing the sprockets on my 8 speed Shimano cassette to match the spacing of a 9 speed Campy cassette?
Alot of bad info here....Obviously 9 and 10 campy shifters don't pull the same amount of cable per shift, and neither do 7,8, and 9 speed STI. What's common amongst them is that the campy RD have the same throw ratio(compatibility with the lever). Shiamno RD have their same throw ratios, and compatibility with Shimano Shifters. Except that pre 9 speed DA shifters and RD had their own unique cable pull/ RD throw ratios and were therefore incompatible with other shimano shifters/RD.....When you start talking respacing a cassette that is a whole different concept. But if you do that then you need to use a Campy RD with the ergo shifters.
sydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 04:11 PM   #7
keevohn
laterally compliant
Thread Starter
 
keevohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PGH
Bikes:
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think that's what I was driving at. My use of the term 'cable travel per shift' was derived from Sheldon Brown's explanation of why 8 speed Dura Ace doesn't work with other 8 speed Shimano products:

"The major difference between pre-1997 Dura-Ace and the rest of the Shimano lines is the cable travel of the rear derailer. Old Dura-Ace used a shorter amount of cable travel per shift. This has to do with the geometry of the cable attachment."

Sounds like what you meant by 'throw ratios.'

But anyway, you said that Campy RD's use the same throw ratios. And thus the shifter has to be designed to match that throw ratio, correct? A Shimano derailleur can have its cable re-routed to match the throw of a Campy shifter, as proven by the Ergo 10/ Shimano 9 example before. So wouldn't this mean that an Ergo 9 shifter can be used in a similar manner to make it compatible with a Shimano derailleur?

I understand that cassette spacing is a separate issue.
keevohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 04:55 PM   #8
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by keevohn
I think that's what I was driving at. My use of the term 'cable travel per shift' was derived from Sheldon Brown's explanation of why 8 speed Dura Ace doesn't work with other 8 speed Shimano products:

"The major difference between pre-1997 Dura-Ace and the rest of the Shimano lines is the cable travel of the rear derailer. Old Dura-Ace used a shorter amount of cable travel per shift. This has to do with the geometry of the cable attachment."

Sounds like what you meant by 'throw ratios.'

But anyway, you said that Campy RD's use the same throw ratios. And thus the shifter has to be designed to match that throw ratio, correct? A Shimano derailleur can have its cable re-routed to match the throw of a Campy shifter, as proven by the Ergo 10/ Shimano 9 example before. So wouldn't this mean that an Ergo 9 shifter can be used in a similar manner to make it compatible with a Shimano derailleur?

I understand that cassette spacing is a separate issue.
Well, you are dealing with approximately the same difference in cog spacing difference, .22mm in the 10 with 9 senario and .25 in the 9 with 8 senario, and same RD throw ratio,assuming yours is not a pre 9 speed DA.
sydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 09:26 PM   #9
demoncyclist 
Senior Member
 
demoncyclist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Medway, MA
Bikes: 2011 Lynskey Sportive, 1988 Cannondale SM400
Posts: 2,685
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Actually, cassette spacing is part of the issue. For each click of the shifter, the derailleur moves a set amount. The amount of space available for a cassette, be it 8,9 or 10 speeds is the same, so the thickness of the cogs is reduced, as is the space between them. I have an 8s Campy Mirage grouppo on my Bianchi. The Spinergy wheels I bought were available with either a Campy 9/10 freehub (the spline pattern is different for 8s) or a Shimano 8/9/10. I went with the Shimano compatible hub, but use a cassette that has been respaced (Wheels Mfg makes a spacer kit) to work correctly with my Campy shifters. I have seen mixed systems, and they can work, but not as precisely and predictably as having everything speced to one system or the other.
__________________
DEMON

Satanic Mechanic
STAR 3 Spinning Instructor

2011 Lynskey Sportive (Shimano Ultegra 10s)
1988 Cannondale SM400 (Suntour XC-M 7s)
demoncyclist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-05, 10:03 PM   #10
sydney
Senior Member
 
sydney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by demoncyclist
Actually, cassette spacing is part of the issue. For each click of the shifter, the derailleur moves a set amount. The amount of space available for a cassette, be it 8,9 or 10 speeds is the same, so the thickness of the cogs is reduced, as is the space between them.
That ground has been plowed.
sydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-05, 11:33 AM   #11
juicemouse
Senior Member
 
juicemouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Happy Valley
Bikes:
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey everyone. First post:

There is a really great and comprehensive article I found that describes all the different ways that Campy and Shimano will index perfectly together. And as they say in the first part of the article, "perfectly" means just that, not just a system that will "rub along ok together" (eg: Campy 9 with Shimano 9, which I've heard a lot of people using together. A used bike I bought even had a full Campy 9s drivetrain except for the Shimano compatible wheels and a Shimano 9s cassette. I can report rather turd-like shifting from that setup, haha).

Anyway, I highly recomend this article. In your specific situation, it seems the cheapest route to perfect shifting would be to use Campy *10 speed* levers (or 9s upgraded to 10s with a new shifting gear) with your otherwise stock 8s Shimano drivetrain. I'm actually planning on doing something real similar by using Campy 10s shifters with a Sram Di.R.T. rear derailleur (which is directly Shimano compatible) with a Sram 8s cassette (Shimano spacing). Now THAT's a mishmash. I'm in the stage of gathering up the parts right now, so I haven't tried it yet and can't comment on whether it actually works, but this article has really convinced me. Good luck with your setup.

Shimergo article
juicemouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-05, 12:10 PM   #12
legalize_it
legalize bikes
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: bucks county, PA
Bikes: too damn many
Posts: 1,250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
j-tek engineering makes a travel agent that allows the use of shimano shifters with campy derailluers and vice-versa
legalize_it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-05, 04:08 PM   #13
Hemlock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Central Florida
Bikes: Trek 520
Posts: 205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Interesting article juicemouse. I wonder if there's enough of a market for this sort of conversion to warrant someone making adjusted parts for Campagnolo shifters. If you can replace a small part in the shifter to go from 9 to 10 speed compatibility, you should be able to make a similar part that would change the cable pull to work perfectly with Shimano derailers, right? I have a bike with Campagnolo 10 speed and would like to be able to use Shimano wheels just because there are so many more available used. Not something I need, but would be cool to have the flexibility to experiment.
Hemlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-05, 04:40 PM   #14
juicemouse
Senior Member
 
juicemouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Happy Valley
Bikes:
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock
If you can replace a small part in the shifter to go from 9 to 10 speed compatibility, you should be able to make a similar part that would change the cable pull to work perfectly with Shimano derailers, right?
Yeah, I was thinking the same exact thing a while ago. Theoretically it's entirely possible. If I had the time/money/manufacturing capability, I'd probably be working on it right now, haha! I've had the Ergo levers from my race bike apart twice now and I've seen first hand the little part you'd have to make. I think it's pretty unlikely that anyone will attempt to make Shimano index gears for Ergo levers, though, because it would require quite a bit of engineering and difficult/complex machining. The only reason it's possible right now to convert from 8s to 9s to 10s and back again with the modern Ergo levers is because Campagnolo are providing the index gears for repairs and such. I don't see Campy making Shimano index gears just so people can use another company's drivetrain components though. Sure would be sweet if a smaller company would take up the cause, but I guess there are already plenty of conversion cassettes and other little dodads on the market and they don't really see the justification for spending that much on what I agree would be the perfect solution. I'm thinking it might also infringe on Campy's patents if you tried to market such a thing.
juicemouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 PM.