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  1. #101
    Mike J
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Behrens View Post
    Taking my time and working 40 hours a week, I DID get the brakes, brake cables, levers and seat installed tonight.
    I Know how that is, I've been trying to get to a local bike shop to pick up some parts all week to finish a Schwinn Traveler, but haven't been able to get off before 5:00 to get there before he closes. It's an interesting situation the guy has, he's been running a bike sales shop for 40 years, picks up old used bikes, refurbishes them (somewhat poorly) and resells them out front. You can't even get into the building to see what's in there because bikes are piled all on top of each other 6-feet-high, frames and whole bikes and wheels and junk, and no room even to walk between the piles. But, I can get a complete handlebar set with bars, stem, brake levers, stem shifters, and cables for $20 off an old Schwinn ladies' bike. He doesn't really like me stepping over his piles to see what's in the back, but so far I've seen an older Fuji in good shape and a nice older Trek. I'm working on him to let me help him get the stuff organized and do some build work for him.

    Your build looks good. Not much left to do on the basic setup, some bar tape, pedals, water bottle cage, and final adjustments. Trek makes some nice seats in yellow and black that would look good. Can't wait to see the graphics all in place. Thanks for sharing your build.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Thanks for that. Enjoyed your account of the rebuild shop. Hope the owner accepts your offer to help organize. He'll benefit, and you may find a treasure.

    I've never applied Velocal decals to a bike before. I expect it's a one-shot deal, so I'm a little nervous about it. The directions recommend AGAINST clear coating over the decal once it's on. Not sure why. They didn't have a "Sport" decal that I could see, so I guess the top tube will just run naked. Any thoughts or advice on this step are appreciated.

    Also, I picked up a new Shimano FD yesterday to replace the ruined original. $29 in the box. Hate to spend the money but I just don't have time to look around for a good used one. The old derailleur was a "high-normal." This one, as all FDs are now, is a "low-normal," in which the spring is oriented toward bringing the chain down to the small chain ring. (Apparently, the "high-normal" was tried for a while to make the shifters operate in the same direction to upshift and downshift.) Anyway, I hope I can suss out how to mount this "alternate" system. Thanks.

    FD iin Box.jpg

  3. #103
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    Duane,

    I have an '83 Nishiki Sport. I'm the original owner. A few years back I sunk a little bit of money into it. I updated the brakes, converted to from 27" to 700c, double to triple, new seat, handle bars and tape, Technomic stem, tires, tubes, cables and housing, chain, etc. The costs really do add up. The advice you were given originally was actually good advice; not necessarily negative. But I, like you, wanted to do this project. It was fun and my son has gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it. I also used it to commute on for a while. The bike rides great. In retrospect, I wish I'd turned it into a single speed and one day I just might.

    These old bikes make great transportation. Everyone should own one, if not for any other reason, than to take on sketchy errands/rides where theft is an issue.

    But again, I think the advice you were given was sincere. These projects rarely make economic sense. But if you find something that fits and will be used often, than they can be fantastic deals. I also restored an '86 Bianchi Squadra I got off craigslist for $100. This is now my go fast bike. But it rarely gets used anymore since I treated myself to a Rivendell Sam Hillborne; another fun build project!

    Have fun with your project,

    Matt

  4. #104
    Senior Member Wilfred Laurier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Behrens View Post
    Thanks for that. Enjoyed your account of the rebuild shop. Hope the owner accepts your offer to help organize. He'll benefit, and you may find a treasure.

    I've never applied Velocal decals to a bike before. I expect it's a one-shot deal, so I'm a little nervous about it. The directions recommend AGAINST clear coating over the decal once it's on. Not sure why. They didn't have a "Sport" decal that I could see, so I guess the top tube will just run naked. Any thoughts or advice on this step are appreciated.

    Also, I picked up a new Shimano FD yesterday to replace the ruined original. $29 in the box. Hate to spend the money but I just don't have time to look around for a good used one. The old derailleur was a "high-normal." This one, as all FDs are now, is a "low-normal," in which the spring is oriented toward bringing the chain down to the small chain ring. (Apparently, the "high-normal" was tried for a while to make the shifters operate in the same direction to upshift and downshift.) Anyway, I hope I can suss out how to mount this "alternate" system. Thanks.

    FD iin Box.jpg
    that looks to be
    although i am not sure
    a braze on mount derailleur
    which either requires a fitting brazed on the frame
    or a separate adapter

    you probably need either the adapter
    which will wind up costing half again as much as the derailleur
    or a clamp mount derailleur

  5. #105
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier View Post
    that looks to be
    although i am not sure
    a braze on mount derailleur
    which either requires a fitting brazed on the frame
    or a separate adapter

    you probably need either the adapter
    which will wind up costing half again as much as the derailleur
    or a clamp mount derailleur
    It's a clamp-on type, thoughtfully provided with inserts to adapt to the smaller Nishiki seat tube. And it's already installed. Thanks, though.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Hey, Matt. You're correct. I'll probably end up spending a total of around $300 for a bike that, when finished, may sell for around $200. Or something. But using those numbers, I figure I'll have spent $100 for a hands-on bicycle mechanics course in which I've learned very much indeed.

    And for the first time, I've really enjoyed going to school. [insert smiley face here]

  7. #107
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    Once you're reassembled the bike, keep an eye on the right (fixed) bottom bracket cup. You said that you installed it with an adjustable wrench, and you may luck out and find that the fixed cup stays in place as it should. But fixed cup tools are designed to allow the mechanic to apply far more torque than is possible with an adjustable wrench. Fixed cups installed using an adjustable wrench or even a vice tend not to stay fixed. A loose fixed cup can damage both the bottom bracket bearing races and the threads in the frame.

  8. #108
    Mike J
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Behrens View Post
    Thanks for that. Enjoyed your account of the rebuild shop. Hope the owner accepts your offer to help organize. He'll benefit, and you may find a treasure.

    I've never applied Velocal decals to a bike before. I expect it's a one-shot deal, so I'm a little nervous about it. The directions recommend AGAINST clear coating over the decal once it's on. Not sure why. They didn't have a "Sport" decal that I could see, so I guess the top tube will just run naked. Any thoughts or advice on this step are appreciated.

    Also, I picked up a new Shimano FD yesterday to replace the ruined original. $29 in the box. Hate to spend the money but I just don't have time to look around for a good used one. The old derailleur was a "high-normal." This one, as all FDs are now, is a "low-normal," in which the spring is oriented toward bringing the chain down to the small chain ring. (Apparently, the "high-normal" was tried for a while to make the shifters operate in the same direction to upshift and downshift.) Anyway, I hope I can suss out how to mount this "alternate" system. Thanks.

    FD iin Box.jpg
    I've never used Velocals, either, and I've never done any clearcoating on any bikes I've had. I use a car polish, one of those "Once a Year" polishes, and I get a fairly high shine out of it, and it'll never peel off or have some bad reaction to a particular paint type or surface prep. If I had a new powdercoat finish, I wouldn't want any clear coat to touch it. Let the powdercoat speak for itself, and heck, I don't expect to keep a bike long enough for a future condition problem on clear-coating or non-clear-coating to matter, anyway. Every used car I've ever had that had been clear-coated ended up with peeling clear-coat all over it. I don't care much for clear-coating.

    Some decals will react badly to a clearcoat, shrinking or loosening of the plastic/vinyl material in the decal, depending on the type of paint applied. Any water-type decals are far too fragile for a clearcoat to use. But, with any decal you have to be careful not to use any sort of high-abrasive polish, since it can easily remove the graphics from the plastic. Me, I'd just use a nice wax over your frame and decals. Brand new paint, brand new decals, why take a chance?

  9. #109
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
    Once you're reassembled the bike, keep an eye on the right (fixed) bottom bracket cup. You said that you installed it with an adjustable wrench, and you may luck out and find that the fixed cup stays in place as it should. But fixed cup tools are designed to allow the mechanic to apply far more torque than is possible with an adjustable wrench. Fixed cups installed using an adjustable wrench or even a vice tend not to stay fixed. A loose fixed cup can damage both the bottom bracket bearing races and the threads in the frame.
    Thank you for that. Interestingly, I don't recall putting excessive force on the fixed cup to remove it. But my memory sucks. I'll have the LBS check the tightness. Good stuff - thanks again. DB

  10. #110
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj1091 View Post
    Some decals will react badly to a clearcoat, shrinking or loosening of the plastic/vinyl material in the decal, depending on the type of paint applied. Any water-type decals are far too fragile for a clearcoat to use. But, with any decal you have to be careful not to use any sort of high-abrasive polish, since it can easily remove the graphics from the plastic. Me, I'd just use a nice wax over your frame and decals. Brand new paint, brand new decals, why take a chance?
    Thanks!

  11. #111
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Still waiting for delivery of the clamp-on cable stop for the side-pull FD. I'm letting an excellent local bike shop - Safety Cycle in Torrance - assist in this step, since they'll also make sure the sprocket, chain an chain rings are in proper alignment. Then I'll install new bar tape and brake pads. Assuming I can put them on straight, the new Nishiki decals should finish it off nicely. So I'm getting close. :-) And I've had a great time. If you haven't tried it yet, I recommend this as a reasonable hobby.

    almost - 1.JPG]almost - 2.JPG

  12. #112
    Senior Member clarkbre's Avatar
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    Very cool! I have been following this thread and really like those older Nishikis. it looks like it will be a very nice bike.
    1995 Giant Innova
    2012 Surly Pacer

  13. #113
    Senior Member Wilfred Laurier's Avatar
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    A suggestion:

    Generally on bikes that aren't cruisers or english three speeds
    the transverse bolt on the seat clamp goes behind the post
    not in front

    looks pretty sweet
    now go find some bikeless five foot five person to ride the hell out of it

  14. #114
    Mike J
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Behrens View Post
    Still waiting for delivery of the clamp-on cable stop for the side-pull FD. I'm letting an excellent local bike shop - Safety Cycle in Torrance - assist in this step, since they'll also make sure the sprocket, chain an chain rings are in proper alignment. Then I'll install new bar tape and brake pads. Assuming I can put them on straight, the new Nishiki decals should finish it off nicely. So I'm getting close. :-) And I've had a great time. If you haven't tried it yet, I recommend this as a reasonable hobby.



    almost - 1.JPG]almost - 2.JPG
    Nice progress, Duane, it's looking sweet. Yep, when the decals get on, then it'll look like a new bike. I started into all this as a hobby, and I'm within a few weeks of making bike-building and restoring a full-time job. Be careful, it can be addicting!

  15. #115
    Senior Member CustomSteel's Avatar
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    Looking sharp, that's a nice setup you have there. I'm still trying to find a good place to have our bikes powder coated. I noticed talk of clearcoat, and if you don't mind I'd like to share something real quick regarding the stuff. Clearcoat paint is intended to make underlying paint look exceptionally shiny and deep, which is exactly why it is used as a standard in the automotive industry. The "wet" look helps sell cars, and clearcoat is the least expensive and easiest solution to achieve this effect. Wet sanding and buffing is actually the proper way to give depth and shine to paint, but this is very time consuming. Clear topcoats are more susceptible to UV light and ozone, which both degrade the clear paint on a molecular level causing it to discolor and/or lift and peel. The most useful application of clearcoat is in circumstances where you have multi-tone paint jobs or decals that you want to have a seamless transition over the surface, ie smooth to the touch when you run your hand over it. This really isn't necessary unless you need a show-quality finish on a custom paint job.

    You have a great solid bike there. I understand people out there may feel it's a waste of time and money because it does not have a high market value, but the market value doesn't have anything to do with it being a good bike or not. It's fickle stuff and in the end it's really just stupid. If you plan on keeping this bike, then your time and the quality work put into it will always be a good investment. On a side note, this would be a really solid frame for a touring bike if you are/were ever interested in that. I wouldn't mind riding my Peugeot P8 with you, although it admittedly wouldn't be as in nice of shape as your bike.

  16. #116
    Mike J
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    Quote Originally Posted by CustomSteel View Post
    I noticed talk of clearcoat, and if you don't mind I'd like to share something real quick regarding the stuff. Clearcoat paint is intended to make underlying paint look exceptionally shiny and deep, which is exactly why it is used as a standard in the automotive industry. The "wet" look helps sell cars, and clearcoat is the least expensive and easiest solution to achieve this effect. Wet sanding and buffing is actually the proper way to give depth and shine to paint, but this is very time consuming. Clear topcoats are more susceptible to UV light and ozone, which both degrade the clear paint on a molecular level causing it to discolor and/or lift and peel. The most useful application of clearcoat is in circumstances where you have multi-tone paint jobs or decals that you want to have a seamless transition over the surface, ie smooth to the touch when you run your hand over it. This really isn't necessary unless you need a show-quality finish on a custom paint job.
    Good solid advice there, CustomSteel, I advised the same. I use a high-quality automotive polish after I paint, a once-a-year polish, and my paint looks like a clear-coat when I'm done. I stay off the decals with the polish (tape them off with a low-adhesion tape since many old decals and graphics are fairly fragile) then I finish with a good waxing. I hate clearcoating since it is so time-consuming to have to do another sanding to get a good adhesion and that sanding is taking off some of the thickness of the good paint I just applied, and most times I tend to work on bikes that have metallic paints which don't really allow for sanding to be a viable option. A good polish, used with care, takes off a very minor amount of surface paint, and won't ever peel which is why I call clearcoat, "future-peel".

  17. #117
    Senior Member Kopsis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CustomSteel View Post
    Wet sanding and buffing is actually the proper way to give depth and shine to paint, but this is very time consuming.
    This is true for traditional lacquers where multiple applications followed by wet sanding could give you better depth than you could get with a lacquer clear. But keep in mind that achieving depth this way often meant five or more coats of lacquer with extensive wet sanding in between. One coat of lacquer sanded and polished wouldn't give you any better results than a lacquer base/clear. Of course this is all assuming no wax. A really good carnuba can make almost any finish look a mile deep

    Modern PU paints are specifically engineered for a base/clear approach (you could polish the base coat until your buffer dies and you still wouldn't get any depth). You can't get quite the finish you could get with the old paints, but as you said, it's far less labor and material intensive. The PU clear is also much more durable than a lacquer finish.

    Clear topcoats are more susceptible to UV light and ozone, which both degrade the clear paint on a molecular level causing it to discolor and/or lift and peel.
    Not true for a modern catalyzed PU clear. This was mostly an issue back when EPA regs forced the auto industry to switch to low VOC paints. The current generation of PU clearcoats have better UV stability (and actually block UV to the base coat) than lacquers.

    Sorry to drift so far OT, but there are a lot of myths surrounding modern paints that need busting.

  18. #118
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Maybe (slightly) off topic, but useful. Many thanks to the previous 3 posters for educating me on paint! Heh. I'd bought a rattle can of "Clear Coat," intending to spray it over the applied decals. After reading the above, I think that that can will stay on the shelf for now.

  19. #119
    Senior Member Kopsis's Avatar
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    Unless the can of clear is this, it's best to leave it on the shelf.

    680061_2K_Klarlack_01.jpg

  20. #120
    Senior Member CustomSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj1091 View Post
    I hate clearcoating since it is so time-consuming to have to do another sanding to get a good adhesion and that sanding is taking off some of the thickness of the good paint I just applied, and most times I tend to work on bikes that have metallic paints which don't really allow for sanding to be a viable option. A good polish, used with care, takes off a very minor amount of surface paint, and won't ever peel which is why I call clearcoat, "future-peel".
    Yes, wet sanding and polishing metallic paints has its own issues. The metallic paints are generally relatively translucent, which means you need more layers than a normal opaque color both for depth and especially wet sanding. This also means that the underlying primer or base color will have a slight effect on the final color of the metallic paint being used.
    I use a quality wax myself on my bikes as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kopsis View Post
    This is true for traditional lacquers where multiple applications followed by wet sanding could give you better depth than you could get with a lacquer clear. But keep in mind that achieving depth this way often meant five or more coats of lacquer with extensive wet sanding in between. One coat of lacquer sanded and polished wouldn't give you any better results than a lacquer base/clear. Of course this is all assuming no wax. A really good carnuba can make almost any finish look a mile deep

    Modern PU paints are specifically engineered for a base/clear approach (you could polish the base coat until your buffer dies and you still wouldn't get any depth). You can't get quite the finish you could get with the old paints, but as you said, it's far less labor and material intensive. The PU clear is also much more durable than a lacquer finish.



    Not true for a modern catalyzed PU clear. This was mostly an issue back when EPA regs forced the auto industry to switch to low VOC paints. The current generation of PU clearcoats have better UV stability (and actually block UV to the base coat) than lacquers.

    Sorry to drift so far OT, but there are a lot of myths surrounding modern paints that need busting.
    Spot on with the lacquer. I hate using it for many reasons including what you've stated. The multiple layers present another problem in addition to what's been stated in that they become too rigid and are prone to various types of cracking if you build up too many layers. Lacquers in general just aren't as durable and don't hold their color for as long as more modern paints do.

    Agreed on modern systems as well, PU or otherwise. They are designed for a two-stage basecoat (flat color coat) and topcoat (glossy clearcoat). There is absolutely no way to get a normal finish out of the basecoat in a two-stage system. The basecoat colors also require the protection of the clear topcoat, or they will start doing some weird stuff (ie:, not a good choice for creating a "suede" paint job). The low VOC paints were definitely awful, honestly beyond awful, and had plenty of issues beyond the clearcoat. The current generation(s) of paints (there are different formulas that have been developed in a staggered timeline) absolutely have better UV protection in their clearcoat formulas than ever, and the clearcoats are without question more durable. The issue is that the chemical matrix required for the paint to be clear is beautiful (on a molecular level) but fragile because of the way the molecules are lined up, and as a consequence are not as stable as we would like them to be. They still degrade when exposed to UV and ozone, they just hold up longer than the older formulas. Automotive (and other) factories also have some additional useful tricks that really aren't available to the typical DIY painter, for the time being, that help make their paint jobs more durable and longer lasting. You don't have to buy a two-stage basecoat + clearcoat paint system, you can buy modern single-stage paints that do not require a clearcoat. Automotive paint shops can mix up any two-stage color as a single-stage color for you in spray cans as well if you need. You can very easily get the same results of a clearcoat when wet sanding a modern single stage paint, I've done it many times. It doesn't require as much effort as lacquers, but it still requires more effort than simply spraying clearcoat on top.

    But this is all subjective, as you don't really need a clearcoat on top of a powder coated finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kopsis View Post
    Unless the can of clear is this, it's best to leave it on the shelf.


    680061_2K_Klarlack_01.jpg
    I second this, and as much as I hate to say this, the clearcoat available in spray can from Pep Boys also works very well.




    You made the right choice with powder coating. The only drawback is that it presents difficulties with touch-ups.

    Duane, when do we get to see an update??

  21. #121
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj1091 View Post
    Nice progress, Duane, it's looking sweet. Yep, when the decals get on, then it'll look like a new bike. I started into all this as a hobby, and I'm within a few weeks of making bike-building and restoring a full-time job. Be careful, it can be addicting!
    Wow. Making a living at doing something you love. Congratulations, man . . . .

  22. #122
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CustomSteel View Post
    You made the right choice with powder coating. The only drawback is that it presents difficulties with touch-ups. Duane, when do we get to see an update??
    The LBS is still waiting for the cable clamp (allowing for a side pull changeover from the original bottom pull FD) to come in. I've waited a week now. They're tired of me driving into the parking lot. :-)

    I almost - that is, almost - started tearing into my next project, an old Schwinn World Sport. I'm trying to tell myself that it's better to finish one project before starting the next one. Hopefully I'll listen. (No he won't) Yes I will! (he won't tho) SHUT UP!!

    - "Three out of four of the voices in my head say, 'Don't shoot.' " -

  23. #123
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    Now that this thread is well into 5 pages, any idea how much money (not counting time) you've put into this "learning experience" to resurrect a bike that won't fit you?

  24. #124
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Mar 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    Now that this thread is well into 5 pages, any idea how much money (not counting time) you've put into this "learning experience" to resurrect a bike that won't fit you?
    Nah . . . Unfortunately, I have to spend a lot of time here defending against skeptics, naysayers, drunks and derelicts who like to diss on others as compensation for a sad, pathetic and totally justified sense of inferiority.

    I tell myself they can't help it.


  25. #125
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    $286.14, including purchase price. Or maybe $763.89. I'm not sure.

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