arex

I'm in the process of rebuilding an old Raleigh, and I have some questions regarding BB bearing, headset bearings, and hub bearings adjustments.

I think I'm not doing something right. When I adjust for no play, the bearings are grumbly, but when I back them off just to the point of no grumbliness, I have play. This is going on with both the old BB, old headset, and new hub bearings, so I gotta think my issue here is a procedural one.

Do I adjust for no play, or no grumbliness? Is there some sweet spot in between?

davidad

there should be a small amount of preload on all of those bearings. On cheaper bearings it will feel a little lumpy. On good ones there will be a slight amount of drag.
On the hubs, if they are quick release, there should be a small amount of play that goes away when the QR is closed.
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/bb-adjust.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/cone-adjustment.html

fietsbob

Have you overhauled, cleaned and after inspection Re greased it with new Balls ?

your 'grumblyness' may be pitted bearing races..

Andrew R Stewart 

Here we have one of the topics of opinion that us old timers would argue about BITD. Is the best bearing adjustment one with a touch of preload or looseness. Over the years I've decided that a touch loose is better. Less future wear and unless you have a lot the looseness is not noticed during riding.

To the OP's question- i suspect that the races (cups or cones) are worn/pitted. But Raleigh was not known for their fine frame finishing. I've seen many, mostly low end, Raleighs with poorly faced shells and head tubes. And the multy piece hubs are subject to the two sides shifting out of parallel. Andy.

cny-bikeman

I agree that the most critical factor is the condition of the races. If they are unevenly worn or pitted you will get noise or roughness. You have to make a decision whether to tolerate it (if rough slightly loose is safer), try to find replacements at a reasonable cost, or abandon the project.

JerrySTL

Also did you put in the correct number of ball bearings? The standard way of doing this is to fill the race with a ring of bearings, then remove one.

arex

Torn down, cleaned, regreased, but no new balls. I have since acquired new balls, and I was going to sit down tonight to redo them. The front hub is NOS, but I did clean and regrease it, knowing how gunky old grease can get.

The races looked okay. I had to thoroughly clean those out, because of the old gummy grease that had dried up in them. From what I hear of Raleigh races, those probably aren't going to be a problem.

Andrew R Stewart 

Except for most hubs and BBs. Andy.

arex

I was careful to replace what I removed. They all looked like "full minus one."

I definitely will redo them with new balls tonight. The old ones looked okay, but I know that it doesn't take much for them to be not okay.

arex

Replaced the balls, and everything adjusted up pretty well.

rydabent

"preloading" bearings actually cause the races to deform slightly. That of course then causes more drag. IMO that causes the bearing to fail early.

I might also point out that if a bearing is adj for a "slight bind" indoors, when take out on a hot day, the drag and deformation of the bearing race become worse.

1saxman

Arex; sounds like you have a handle on it. The thing you have to look for on old races in addition to pitting is 'Brinelling' which is where the balls 'imprint' in one position in the raceway. This happens because most of your riding is done with the handlebar in the straight-ahead position, and is the result of road shock. Its easy to see. If the imprints don't disappear when you clean the race, you have to replace it, because you can never get rid of the 'rumble when turning the bars.
Otherwise, always replace the ball bearings when overhauling an old bicycle, as you discovered.

seedsbelize 

Good to hear from one old timer to another. I also adjust to the loose side just because it feels right.

Andrew R Stewart 

The actual (from many on line postings, must be true) of the headset damage usually refereed to as brinelling is fretting. The "pot hole" is not from compression forces but the lube's failure and the surface's breaking off/down microscopic bit by bit.

having said that I feel that I've seen indented headset races on bikes never ridden, right out of the box. Andy.

davidad

Your opinion does not change the fact that a bearing needs preload to preform properly.

Andrew R Stewart 

Please educate me as to what is proper bearing performance? Andy.

davidad

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/bb-adjust.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/cone-adjustment.html

1saxman

Probably over-torqued assemblies and/or soft races. Sort of shoots down the 'oil break down' and 'surface breaking off bit-by-bit' theory, doesn't it?

ThermionicScott 

Given that the loose-vs-preload debate has raged for decades, I wonder how much difference it makes in the end. One would think that if one method caused bearings to wear out significantly faster than the other, the debate would have been over long ago.

I've gone to adjusting my bottom brackets and wheels so that I've just removed the last bit of play -- without any more preload -- and hoping that it'll all work out over the long term.

Andrew R Stewart 

I had hoped my "must be true? remark would indicate humor. I have read many previous discussions about headset bearing surface wear. Is it brinelling or is it fretting (only the bike's hair dresser knows. And that is a joke...)

Really i don't know the reasons the indents occurs in headsets. I thought I did years ago. But i read the explanations from others that are far more educated in these matters then I and I have to give some possible credence to their claims. I too, as i said, have seen indents that for all i could tell look like compressions in the races. But I am willing to consider other causes, trying to keep an open mind.

Fretting, as I understand it, only ocurrs when there is very little relative movement between the bearing surfaces. It would be more likely with preloaded bearings and/or old/poor/washed out lube. This describes many headsets.

Just because I don't fully understand a phenomenon does not mean it does not happen.

But all this back and forth isn't really the issue. How to get the OP's bike working well is my goal. This is why i continue to post more aspects and info. If my ego was the only reason i posted I'd stop a long time ago.

A further nugget is that the lower cost Raleigh (Grand Prix, Sprites, Records, most all the 3 speeds) headsets were almost a complete axial design. Very little angular contact (like most other cup and cone designs). So they are more sensitive to the parallelness of the races. Also the upper and lower races are not exactly the same diameter. The lower is slightly larger and takes one ball more. We would see alot of headsets that would have binding, take them apart and change the ball count by one or two balls and the binding would be gone. I forget the ball count but 22 and 23 come to mind. Andy.

Andrew R Stewart 

When i had my shop my manager (of 7 years) came out of the BMX world. He always set the bearings tight. I always got on him to adjust them, for our customers, almost loose. But when you are many feet in the air the last thing you want is wiggling wheels, or so he would counter. I would say "for your bike do whatever you want". Andy.

JBC353

My preference for the last 50 years has been for ball bearings to have some barely perceptible slack, AFTER all the lock nuts are tightened down. Tapered roller bearings are different critters entirely.

Bob Shaver

what I learned was to tighten the bearings until they were tight then back them off a bit, till they were free turning with no "tick of play."

arex

That's pretty much the way I've been doing it. Thank you.