Loose cog on Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub okay?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Loose cog on Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub okay?
I built up an S-A AW for my winter bike, and on my maiden voyage discovered that the cog was slipping under torque. On closer inspection, I realized that the cog itself was not engaging the splines of the driver. I had placed the cog too far out by using three spacers to try to match the chainline of my crankset, and in doing so brought the cog too close to the end of the splined section, and intruding into the channeled area where the lockring seats. The lockring itself was not entirely seated as a result.
You can see the three spacers and not fully seated lockring in this pic:
In hindsight, I should have realized the cog could slowly dislodge the incompletely seated lockring, which it did within two blocks of riding (these things never manifest on the workstand!!!). As a temporary fix, I removed one spacer. Now the cog is fully engaged on the splines and the lockring fully seated in its channel. The cog no longer slips. But now there is a slight wiggle to the cog, it is not seated snugly between the spacers and the lockring. I could probably get the cog snug and retain full seating of the lockring by replacing the two spacers with three thinner ones (I haven't measured their thickness), but is this necessary? Will the slight wiggle cause wear to the driver splines? Or to the keyed nubs on the cog?
You can see the three spacers and not fully seated lockring in this pic:
In hindsight, I should have realized the cog could slowly dislodge the incompletely seated lockring, which it did within two blocks of riding (these things never manifest on the workstand!!!). As a temporary fix, I removed one spacer. Now the cog is fully engaged on the splines and the lockring fully seated in its channel. The cog no longer slips. But now there is a slight wiggle to the cog, it is not seated snugly between the spacers and the lockring. I could probably get the cog snug and retain full seating of the lockring by replacing the two spacers with three thinner ones (I haven't measured their thickness), but is this necessary? Will the slight wiggle cause wear to the driver splines? Or to the keyed nubs on the cog?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,073
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4201 Post(s)
Liked 3,857 Times
in
2,305 Posts
A slight wiggle usually won't cause the chain to try to derail (the main concern). Single speed (1/2x1/8) chain is not designed to want to derail so it really takes a large misalignment for it to do so. As long as the chain ring and the hub cog are pretty well lined up you'll likely be fine. BTW the rear cog can have it's chain line changed by both the cog/spacers arrangement as well as flipping the cog around so it's dished in the other direction. Andy.
#3
Banned
As long as the snap ring is in place it wont come off.
there should be 2 spacers, those washers and the dish in the cog lets you shift the chainline around a bit.
there should be 2 spacers, those washers and the dish in the cog lets you shift the chainline around a bit.
#4
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,621
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1665 Post(s)
Liked 1,818 Times
in
1,057 Posts
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,706
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5779 Post(s)
Liked 2,576 Times
in
1,427 Posts
Transfer one of the three spacers to the outside to stabilize the sprocket. When correctly mounted, the smap ring isn't pocketed at the bottom of the groove, but pushed out against the side of the groove to provide reaction force compressing the sprocket/spaecr stack.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
A slight wiggle usually won't cause the chain to try to derail (the main concern). Single speed (1/2x1/8) chain is not designed to want to derail so it really takes a large misalignment for it to do so. As long as the chain ring and the hub cog are pretty well lined up you'll likely be fine. BTW the rear cog can have it's chain line changed by both the cog/spacers arrangement as well as flipping the cog around so it's dished in the other direction. Andy.
The problem with 3 spacers, regardless how they're ordered with the cog, is that the lockring is pushed to far out of its channel to stay there. Any lateral force and it can pop out. With two spacers, the lockring seats tightly but there's slight slop, and therefore no compressive force against the cog.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,706
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5779 Post(s)
Liked 2,576 Times
in
1,427 Posts
Shop (search) for a thinner spacer, or cut one from shim stock, plastic, or even a piece of card stock, so there's some thrust against the snap ring and the outside of it's groove. (if you use paper, soak it in oil before using, and it'll last eons.
Otherwise, if there's a local machine shop, bring the ring and a few beers and ask if he can take it down to half (or whatever you need) on his surface grinder. This is about a 1 minute job, since most shops have a grinder with magnetic chuck and all purpose wheel read to go 24/7.
BTW- If the driver diameter is 1-3/8" (35mm) I can send you (I think) a 1mm aluminum spacer I used to make for BB cups.
Otherwise, if there's a local machine shop, bring the ring and a few beers and ask if he can take it down to half (or whatever you need) on his surface grinder. This is about a 1 minute job, since most shops have a grinder with magnetic chuck and all purpose wheel read to go 24/7.
BTW- If the driver diameter is 1-3/8" (35mm) I can send you (I think) a 1mm aluminum spacer I used to make for BB cups.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,073
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4201 Post(s)
Liked 3,857 Times
in
2,305 Posts
"The chain, chainring and cog are 3/32 on this setup." Southpawboston
Well there's your problem. No righful SA should ever be used with a skinny winny chain Andy.
Well there's your problem. No righful SA should ever be used with a skinny winny chain Andy.
#9
Banned
Just after being around 100+ years the S-A 3 spline fitting type has been a multinational standard.
Shimano introduced the 9 spline , more recently.. a second type , also used now.
For Brompton, Sachs made a 2 cog driver and a 13 & 15t 3/32 cog, for the B derailleur scheme.
It has a 3 gaps, a skip tooth design, for shifting ,, in AW3_ 3 spline.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brompton-...iso-prod22346/
Shimano introduced the 9 spline , more recently.. a second type , also used now.
For Brompton, Sachs made a 2 cog driver and a 13 & 15t 3/32 cog, for the B derailleur scheme.
It has a 3 gaps, a skip tooth design, for shifting ,, in AW3_ 3 spline.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brompton-...iso-prod22346/
Last edited by fietsbob; 12-13-13 at 10:44 AM.
#10
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 9
Bikes: Old and new
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Normally, a little wiggle is no biggie. But since it already slipped off, I'd just check the three inner dogs on the cog and the indents on the hub driver for wear. If they look like there's plenty of meat there, roll on.
#11
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,621
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1665 Post(s)
Liked 1,818 Times
in
1,057 Posts
Just something for you to think about.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,073
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4201 Post(s)
Liked 3,857 Times
in
2,305 Posts
Instead when i got around to playing around with dérailleur shifting and AWs i just mounted two standard cogs back to back. the shifting was pretty poor what with the tooth profiles. Grinding a chisel on a couple of teeth helped. Andy.
#13
Abuse Magnet
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,869
Bikes: '91 Mtn Tek Vertical, '74 Raleigh Sports, '72 Raleigh Twenty, '84 Univega Gran Turismo, '09 Surly Karate Monkey, '92 Burley Rock-n-Roll, '86 Miyata 310, '76 Raleigh Shopper
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times
in
88 Posts
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The inner dogs did get chewed/rounded a little from slipping... but I think there's plenty left. The driver is unmarred (hardened steel?).
#15
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 9
Bikes: Old and new
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#16
Banned
It's* sitting out too far..? maybe one spacer has to go , so the snap* ring beds into the groove
properly.
the other snap ring has its own pliers , and would be something from the auto parts
and machine fastners world ..
had one in the early 60's, used it in a 3x3x3 drivetrain, adding a triple crank.
thing worked with an 1/8" chain.. Huret Alvit chain shovers.
properly.
the other snap ring has its own pliers , and would be something from the auto parts
and machine fastners world ..
Cyclo, many years ago, made two and three cog units for SA drivers.
thing worked with an 1/8" chain.. Huret Alvit chain shovers.
Last edited by fietsbob; 12-13-13 at 05:19 PM.
#17
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,621
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1665 Post(s)
Liked 1,818 Times
in
1,057 Posts
#18
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,621
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1665 Post(s)
Liked 1,818 Times
in
1,057 Posts
No big deal, but as a matter of history, Sturmey introduced the three-spline in the early 1950s. Before that, most of their cogs were thread-on, like track cogs still are today. The three spline pattern cogs are used with and interchangeable on Sturmey 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7-speed hubs, Fitchel&Sachs (& SRAM) 2, 3, 5 & 7-speed hubs, Shimano 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 & 11-speed hubs and various brands of single speed coaster brake hubs.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
I got a thread-on w/lockring Velosteel. Lovin' the convenience. But, I'm a hit up the home depot for that trick circlip TCS posted above, for the other IGH/ CB bikes.... Looks to be the custard.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
AlanC8
Bicycle Mechanics
7
11-11-18 05:34 AM
EpicSchwinn
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
28
03-17-11 12:21 PM