EddNog

Hello, fine fellow cyclist mechanics.

I just set up a road tubeless wheel & tire set by myself for the first time last night. My original intent was to try and set it up without any sealant, although I had an Effetto Mariposa Caffe Latex kit on hand just in case. The wheels are Shimano Ultegra 6700. The Presta valve stems with removable core are from Stan's No Tubes and the tires are the new(ish) Hutchinson Sector 28s.

Mounting the tires to the wheels with my bare hands proved impossible for me, but I got them on in the end. I didn't have a proper mechanical pump with Presta head available to me, so I tried to just inflate using my steel drive floor pump. In the end, that did not work for either, front or rear wheel & tire. I finally gave up, removed the valve cores and filled both tires with ~40ml of Caffe Latex. I was subsequently able to seal the bead and inflate both tires to 100psi using my floor pump with minimal issue.

That being said, I found that for the first 24 hours, there was a somewhat alarming amount of sealant leaking out from the bead/rim interface from the rear wheel (probably a total of maybe a teaspoon all told), and even a small amount from the front wheel (at most a quarter teaspoon). I kept turning the wheel & tire occasionally to try and allow the sealant to sit and seal. The following 24 hours, the leaking significantly reduced. I will check again tonight to see if it has finally stopped.

That being said, I fail to see how it is possible to utilize these tires on these wheels completely without sealant (per Shimano's instructions). Even if I had a mechanical pump around to blast the beads and set them against the rims, how would they hold air if even sealant is leaking out in the first 36 hours? Does it somehow have to do with me not using any lubricant to mount the tires? Or is it because the tires are too new (freshly unfolded from the packaging) and have not yet filled out to shape?

This is the first set I've set up myself, but not the first road tubeless setup I've owned. My own bike has a full Bontrager setup (Bontrager Race Lite TLR wheels show with R3 TLR tires, Bontrager TLR rim strips and Bontrager sealant), and while those did show slightly higher rate of leakage than I'm used to for tubed clinchers, they did not exhibit the sealant bubbling at the bead and they certaintly held air better than the new setup I put together for my girlfriend's bike. And after a couple of months, the rate of leakage with my Bonty setup settled at hardly any more than a regular tubed clincher setup (which I'm hoping is the same for this new setup). I'm just wondering how one can really pull off going sealant-free!

-Ed

fietsbob

How about using Sew Up Glue on the tire beads and Rim edges?


Or buy Tufo Clincher-Tubulars

elcruxio

Why anyone would not use sealant is beyond me. I mean the whole sealant thing is one of the best aspects of the road sealant.

But on to the topic at hand.
Sealants are different. Some are better than others. I do not have first hand experience with cafe latex but I hear it sucks.
Had you used Stans or Joes you would most likely had much less bubbling but whatever.
The rim tire interface may bubble up some sealant. This is normal. Just pump some real pressure into the tires and spin them while they are on the bike. Rent a movie with the bike next to you and for the duration occasionally spin the wheels if they are not sealing. The pressure helps seal the fit. When properly sealed the tubeless system should hold good pressures for months. However test first always before a ride.

elcruxio

This was discussed on another forum. I didn't read it with a lot of conviction but the end result was that using tubular glue was a bad idea. It is not meant for tubeless.

fietsbob

It was suggested for running Low pressures with a tube in the tire .. studs and Ice.
torque creeping the tire around the rim, and shearing the Tube .. glue down 1 bead cures that .




Tufo Puts a couple rings around their sew-up casings to engage the edges of clincher tire rims.
they have their own sealant for those ..


Never bothered by keeping up with the Latest thing like tubeless clinchers. good luck with that.

EddNog

The only reason being that the manufacturer of the wheels said so. Personally, I feel that it makes more sense to run with sealant, but I was looking to test a setup without, just to see how it rode/felt, before filling it with sealant and comparing. Now I can't.

That's an idea; I will give that a try when I get a chance. I did initially pump the tires to 100psi each (Hutchinson specs maximum 105 psi for these big tires), and left them like that for 24 hours before reducing pressures to where I'd actually use them (at the moment, 55psi front/75psi rear, but chances are I will consider lowering the rear pressure even more. This is just to start).

-Ed

elcruxio

Just a quick question.
you said they are sector 28mm. Are they actual tubeless with the carbon fiber bead? If not, don't do it. It's not safe

EddNog

They are absolutely road tubeless ready, just like the wheels. She (the GF) already has standard clinchers available to her, so I purchased these specifically to run lower pressure. They have the road tubeless logo indicated on the packaging as well as the tire sidewalls, so my retailer didn't mess anything up, either.

-Ed

EddNog

Just got home after a long day in the office and checked the wheels and tires again. I'm happy to report that the tires have lost virtually no air since this morning and there is no further visible release/leaking of sealant anywhere on either rim/bead. Can't wait to throw these on her bike and have her take them for a spin!

-Ed

UnfilteredDregs

I have the Secteur 28 tires and my wheels are HED Ardennes.... It took me less than 20 minutes to get both tires on and pressurized (compressor), bead snapped in nicely. I then deflated, added sealant via the removable valve cores, re-inflated, and not a spot of sealant leaked... I use Orange Seal which quickly sets up the bead. I'm of the thinking that some rim designs are better for this than others... Caffe Latex does not enjoy a good rep as far as sealant goes...

A good tubeless rig should set up right away. Minimal leakage and loss of pressure.

elcruxio

Ok good. I didn't know there were sector tubeless available.

I have to get those for my next tires. I might need new rims however because the inner diameter in my current set is 17mm so it's going to be pretty tight to fit a 28mm in there.

EddNog

Thanks, I'll take a look into that Orange Seal stuff. Up until now, I'd only ever heard of Stan's No Tubes, Hutchinson Protect'Air Max, the Bontrager sealant and the Effetto Mariposa stuff. The only two I've personal experience with are the latter two, and I was considering the Hutchinson stuff for next round, but Orange Seal sounds like another good option instead.

-Ed

dsaul

After inflating tubeless tires, I always hold the wheel on an angle and spin it so the sealant settles into the bead seat area on each side. I've never had one leak at the bead for more than a few seconds with this method. In terms of sealant, I've switched all my road and mountain tires to Orange Seal. The main reason was because Stans and Velofuze would leak through the sidewall of some MTB tires and Orange Seal doesn't seem to do that.

Vince Canepa

I had serious corrosion issues after only one year running Calfee Latex in a set of Dura-Ace 7850 tubeless wheels. The wheels had holes right through the rim and would no longer hold air. Shimano refused to replace the rims citing the use of sealant. I had the rims replaced (not cheap mind you) and sold the wheels. I now run Campagnolo Shamal Ultra 2-way Fit wheels, Hutchinson Fusion 3 tubeless and no sealant. I have done this for over 2 years and have had no flats. I carry a tube and if I get a flat I will throw in a tube. I agree that the sealant makes sense, but I was spooked by the whole corrosion problem and don't want to take any chances. I don't have much leakage. Maybe 5 lbs. every few days. I find the tubeless tires seem to be more puncture resistant than tubed tires of the same performance range. I do note that Campagnolo coats the inside of their rims; the Shimanos were bare aluminum.

I like the tubeless format and like the lower pressures I can use. BUT, I went back to tubulars on my newest bike. When I go back and forth between bikes I find I still prefer a good set of tubulars.

EddNog

When was this, before the 2012 formula change, or after?

-Ed

Vince Canepa

[QUOTE]When was this, before the 2012 formula change, or after?/QUOTE]

I assume you are referring to the Calfee Latex. It was added to the wheels when they were new in March 2010.

For Shimano users, I have noticed that even the latest 9000 series Dura-Ace wheels still carry the same warning against "alkaline" sealants.

EddNog

[QUOTE=Vince Canepa;16447008]Thanks; I searched several sources across the web, and noticed that the general consensus across multiple quotes from different sources within Shimano/Shimano North America states that IF you do use any sealant, Caffelatex is the one to use. My assumption is that this means Caffelatex (at least the new formula since January of 2012) is not alkaline in Ph. I guess time will tell in my case!

-Ed

well biked

Funny thing is, Shimano "tubeless ready" rims are apparently particularly prone to this corrosion. I've used Stan's sealant over a very long period (nearly since day one for Stan's Notubes), in both road and mountain applications, in so many different rims I can't name them all. Never a single problem with corrosion. And yet the problem is real with Shimano rims. And Shimano says Stan's sealant is the worst among the sealants in terms of corrosiveness. I don't want to worry about such things, I'll stay away from Shimano rims for tubeless.

If Shimano doesn't get that liquid sealant is a key part of the tubeless equation, they really don't get tubeless.

UnfilteredDregs

Some info I have on hand from Orange Seal:

"John V" <jvargus@orangesealcycling.com> wrote:

> Martin,
>
> Thank you for choosing Orange Seal!
> What part of the country are you in and often do you ride? Both affect
> frequency, a general good rule of thumb start checking about every 30
> days. Based upon all the factors you can start checking it every two
> weeks.
>
> You do not have to clean out our sealant. If you have another sealant we
> ask you remove all the liquid before adding ours.
>
> When you first do the install take a paper towel and remove any spillage
> or you could purchase our bike shine its great at removing our sealant.
>
> We do not corrode rims, we been running a couple pairs of Dura-Ace C24
> wheels for over 8 months with no problems.
>
> Maintenance is very minimal, if you use the removable valve core to add
> sealant you should be able to keep your bead locked. If you top off with a
> 1-2 ounces every 30 days you will probably never run out of sealant unless
> you have lots of punctures.
>
> Let us know if you have anymore questions.
>
> John
> Orange Seal

UnfilteredDregs

+1000

Vince Canepa

[QUOTE]My assumption is that this means Caffelatex (at least the new formula since January of 2012) is not alkaline in Ph. I guess time will tell in my case!/QUOTE]

I think it would be a good idea to dismount the tire after a few months and clean and inspect the rim. If you don't see any corrosion you are good to go.

EddNog

[QUOTE=Vince Canepa;16449420]Sounds good. I'll report back with the results to share the knowledge.

-Ed

EddNog

Here they are mounted to my girlfriend's Dolce Elite. I had to adjust the brakes to fit the new, wider tires and rims. I also had to slide her speed & cadence sensor way forward because it was coming into conflict with the Ultegra rear wheel's offset spoke arrangement.

-Ed

KlingOn

Using Fusion 3s on Stan's 340 rims I never had this problem. Using Secteur 28s on the same rims I did have a similar issue to yours, but sealant loss was only a few mL. In both of our cases I believe it was our own error. I have now put together many tubeless sets for clients using the Secteur 28s on several different rims. It's like anything in life, the first time you try something, it's always a bit difficult.

I also use plastic tire levers for all the tubeless installs. The anecdotes of bead-destruction seem to come from inexperienced (in general or an experienced mechanic who is inexperienced in tubeless) or very aggressive mechanics.

Sealant should always be used for tubeless. There is no practical reason for doing anything but.

Shimano-France no longer has a list of approved or unapproved sealants.

There is a pervasive amount of misinformation and mistrust regarding what will inevitably become the de facto tire set-up in the future. I haven't had a flat in over a year now. Why would anyone run clinchers? The only benefit of clinchers is a marginally lower initial start-up cost. But after the inevitability of the cash spent on a patch kit and a few tubes, we're back to even on cost.

Plimogz

And in particular:To be fair, I haven't had a 'proper' flat in 3 (or is it two? -- so long I don't remember now) years running clinchers. What I am sure about is that since building my current Karate Monkey (I only have the one bike, which I ride 12 months a year) in the summer of '11, I've not had a single flat which wasn't due to some miss-manipulation or tire defect -- I remember breaking a valve and causing a slow leak as I strung a locking-cable through my front wheel at a crowded stand while in a hurry to catch a train this summer; and I rode some Schwalbe Marathon Winters past the time when the metal studs had worn through the tire's rubber and threads some winters ago -- which led to abrasion on the tube and slow leaks; I also miss-installed a tire+tube while in a hurry to ride to some registration before 5pm in March 2013.

Now, I do change tires an unusual (I expect) amount: Running, as I do, two different sets of winter studded tyres (35mm Marathon winters and 2.25" Ice Spiker Pros) depending on snow/ice, duty/détente; and 4 sets of 29" rubber (Big Apples, Marathons, Comets or Jones' ACX) according to distance, surface, wet or dry. And I can only dream of finally building all the wheelsets I want in order to only have to quickly switch out wheels when I want to do or go something/somewhere else.

In the meantime, filling my tires and rims with goop every time it 'freezing rains' or 'I want to go play in the mud' doesn't sound at all like 'The Future' to me. That, and the only three flats, on clinchers mind you, which I've had in the last 3(?!) years have been down to user error and improper installation -- both of which could just as easily strand a tubeless rider by the side of road, I expect.

Though I will readily admit that when I finally do build all the wheel sets which I'll be enjoying -- each in its own specific way -- in the future, I'll be eager to try tubeless out. It, at least, would've had a chance of carrying that set of 'Winters' with the studs slowly wearing through the casings, or so it seems to me.

...Which gives me an idea for getting those tyres back on the icy pavement...