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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by r0cket88 View Post
    Just to clarify my measurement on the ERD:
    Yes, my spoke was threaded to the top of the nipple, not the bottom of the slot. Is that a problem?
    I measured the spoke prior to measuring the rims so I know I was 281 from the top of the nipple to the bottom of the J-Bend.
    Using the calipers I was shooting for the lowest reading I could get with the calipers and those were the results I posted.

    I don't think I did anything wrong besides potentially shooting for top of nipple instead of bottom of slot.

    Here is my readout from Spocalc for spoke length:
    Attachment 364030

    I see that as 290 front length and 296 NDS and 294 DS.
    Could I possibly use 294 on both the NDS and DS?
    Its looking like spokes are only available in the even number lengths from common suppliers and I'm not exactly sure I want to go custom cut on my first build.

    Anyone see anything wrong with this?
    Either measurement methodology or calculated lengths?
    Should I remeasure with the spoke at the bottom of the slot and re-figure ERD?

    Thanks
    Rick
    No, measuring to the bottom of the slot is wrong and leaves thread unused. See my post about this above. Your measurements are likely fine as is. I would just order the even sized spokes the calculator gave you. Don't try to use the same size on both sides of the rear. Since they are both even, that should be no problem. Having enough spoke length is valuable to a first timer so that you don't have to struggle to "catch" the spoke threads in the nipple as you are getting to the last of the spokes to be laced. Sometimes it can be quite a pull. Having enough (not too much) length helps. You're fine as you are.

    With box section rims there is no harm in the nipple protruding a mm or so above the top of the spoke nipple.
    Last edited by rpenmanparker; 02-12-14 at 09:22 AM.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  2. #52
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    On the contrary, everyone (else) I know of suggests to ideally tension to the top of the nipple and also measure ERD that way. Among those is Damon Rinard, my hero of wheel building expertise. See his website here: http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm, where he clearly diagrams the measurement from nipple top to nipple top.

    I disagree with other things you said as well. I don't understand how adding up the tensions for one spoke on each side of the hub has any relevance to the quality of the wheel build. You can't simply add numerical tensions that are, in fact, vectors with components in opposite directions. It makes no sense to me to do that. Ideally the components of the tensions of every spoke in the direction pointing toward the spoke hole will be equal or nearly equal. And ideally the components of the tensions of every spoke on the DS side will be the numerical equivalent/directional opposite of those on the NDS. Once again, the more equal all the numerical components are, the better. But there is no magic sum of the numbers on the two sides that we are trying to reach. The actual tensions along the directions of the spokes are the vector sums of the tensions in the two component directions, and how those vector sums from the two sides of the wheel add to each other is unimportant. Besides, with many hubs you will not get to 70 kgF on the NDS even at 120 on the DS.

    As far as 90 kgF being sufficient for a front, I suppose it could be, especially with very light gauge spokes like Revolutions. But with a 2.0 mm spoke, that would only provide about 0.75 mm of spoke elongation (stretch) at full tension. Reduce that somewhat due to the compression of fully inflated tires (5-10% in my experience) and you aren't that far away from the 0.4 mm that some folks estimate for the compression of rims just from rider weight. That doesn't even include the inevitable impacts to the wheels due to road hazards, jumps, etc. At 90 kgF with a heavy gauge spoke I believe that repeated spoke slackening is unavoidable. Therefore, I don't think 90 kgF is enough and always take the front wheels to 120. If the rear can stand it, so can the front.
    Do you actually think I give a rats a** what you think?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
    Do you actually think I give a rats a** what you think?
    Actually, I would be surprised to learn that you cared about anyone's opinion but your own.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  4. #54
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Actually, I would be surprised to learn that you cared about anyone's opinion but your own.
    There's about a dozen posters on this forum that I consider knowledgeable and respect their opinions.
    You aren't one of them.
    For wheelbuilding, FBinNY & mrrabbit are a couple.

  5. #55
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    Fair enough. I don't care if you don't respect my opinion. That's your prerogative. But why so vicious? Can't you just say we will have to agree to disagree?

    And by the way, ask your favorite sources about the ERD measurement and other points of disagreement and see what they say.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  6. #56
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    It's bothers me that folks try to migrate ERD from something that is dynamic to something that is static reference-wise - the very religious aspect that has come to dominate ERD discussions that Jobst Brandt noted sometime back in a USENET post.

    ERD is not a standard, it does not have any standards, nor is it a whitepaper spec.


    So I'll spill my spiel one more time:


    1. ERD is the distance from the end of one spoke to the end of the opposing spoke in an already built and functional bicycle wheel.


    Keywords: Distance, Ends of Spokes, Already Built, Functional, Wheel


    Important Note: It's not about the rim. It's about the wheel. If you can't grasp this - you will always struggle with the concept of ERD.


    2. When you attempt to come up with an ERD - you are essentially no different than a weather forecaster. You are trying to predict the future. In this case, you are trying to predict what that distance will be from the end of one spoke to the end of the other when your wheel is finished.

    Fortunately, unlike the weather forecaster, the variables you are working with are only a handful:

    - The rim
    - The rim presence or non-presence of raw joint sleeves.
    - The nipple type and profile.
    - The nipple size and thread depth.
    - The spoke thread length.
    - The spoke and thread minimum and maximum insertion behavior.
    - YOUR aiming preferences as a wheel builder.

    The PHYSICAL variables noted above plus YOUR aiming preference is what makes ERD dynamic.

    You the wheel builder ultimately drive what the ERD will be for a particular build.

    That also means the same exact rim can have dozens of different ERDs - not just one.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCXFKN9JvCQ



    3. The are many methods which to use to "predict" in the form of an ESTIMATE what distance in millimeters when a calculation is done will result in a workable spoke length when building a wheel.

    One common one is to:

    a. Use two spokes of known lengths.
    b. Use two standard profile 12mm, 14mm or 16mm nipples.
    c. Set the nipples on each spoke to the desired aiming point that allows at least 1mm of overhead so as to not run out of threads before achieving desired tension.

    I typically aim for the bottom of the screwdriver slot of 12mm standard profile nipples for 1.5mm of overhead.

    Most old 10mm standard profile nipples easily allow for aiming at the top of the nipple. But you rarely see these anymore...


    d. Position in rim and grab the elbows with calipers and snug.
    e. Repeat in several locations and take the average of the caliper readings.
    f. AVERAGED READINGS + COMBINED KNOWN SPOKE LENGTHS = "ESTIMATED" RIM DIAMETER


    4. Of course as we head off to our favorite spoke length calculators and plug in that distance as "rim diameter" - our fingers are crossed.

    With luck - if the spoke length we get works - i.e., we end up with a functional bicycle wheel.

    If that is the case - our "rim diameter" is judged to be "effective" - hence how we arrive at EFFECTIVE RIM DIAMETER (ERD).


    5. Good practices are as follows:


    Publish ERDs with a reference.

    Example: 606 "~" Flat of 12mm

    This means 606mm as-is aiming for the screwdriver flat of a standard profile 12mm nipple.

    This way other folks can decide one of the following:

    - "I'm doing what he is doing and I'll use the number as-is."
    - "I'm using 16mm standard profile nipples with typical threads and reducing by 1mm on each end for a value of 604mm."
    - "I'm using inverted FSA nipples with a higher aiming point on each end of 4mm for a final value of 612mm."

    References are great. People can use as is - or from experience - adjust to suit their needs.

    Without a reference - your published ERD number means absolutely nothing and cannot be trusted.

    However, one important point remains. The same make and model of rim can change from one rim to the next. So as we always say here on BikeForums.net:

    "It's always best to measure your own ERDs!"

    =8-)
    Last edited by mrrabbit; 02-13-14 at 12:13 AM.
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    It's bothers me that folks try to migrate ERD from something that is dynamic to something that is static reference-wise - the very religious aspect that has come to dominate ERD discussions that Jobst Brandt noted sometime back in a USENET post.

    ERD is not a standard, it does not have any standards, nor is it a whitepaper spec.


    So I'll spill my spiel one more time:


    1. ERD is the distance from the end of one spoke to the end of the opposing spoke in an already built and functional bicycle wheel.


    Keywords: Distance, Ends of Spokes, Already Built, Functional, Wheel


    Important Note: It's not about the rim. It's about the wheel. If you can't grasp this - you will always struggle with the concept of ERD.


    2. When you attempt to come up with an ERD - you are essentially no different than a weather forecaster. You are trying to predict the future. In this case, you are trying to predict what that distance will be from the end of one spoke to the end of the other when your wheel is finished.

    Fortunately, unlike the weather forecaster, the variables you are working with are only a handful:

    - The rim
    - The rim presence or non-presence of raw joint sleeves.
    - The nipple type and profile.
    - The nipple size and thread depth.
    - The spoke thread length.
    - The spoke and thread minimum and maximum insertion behavior.
    - YOUR aiming preferences as a wheel builder.

    The PHYSICAL variables noted above plus YOUR aiming preference is what makes ERD dynamic.

    You the wheel builder ultimately drive what the ERD will be for a particular build.

    That also means the same exact rim can have dozens of different ERDs - not just one.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCXFKN9JvCQ



    3. The are many methods which to use to "predict" in the form of an ESTIMATE what distance in millimeters when a calculation is done will result in a workable spoke length when building a wheel.

    One common one is to:

    a. Use two spokes of known lengths.
    b. Use two standard profile 12mm, 14mm or 16mm nipples.
    c. Set the nipples on each spoke to the desired aiming point that allows at least 1mm of overhead so as to not run out of threads before achieving desired tension.

    I typically aim for the bottom of the screwdriver slot of 12mm standard profile nipples for 1.5mm of overhead.

    Most old 10mm standard profile nipples easily allow for aiming at the top of the nipple. But you rarely see these anymore...


    d. Position in rim and grab the elbows with calipers and snug.
    e. Repeat in several locations and take the average of the caliper readings.
    f. AVERAGED READINGS + COMBINED KNOWN SPOKE LENGTHS = "ESTIMATED" RIM DIAMETER


    4. Of course as we head off to our favorite spoke length calculators and plug in that distance as "rim diameter" - our fingers are crossed.

    With luck - if the spoke length we get works - i.e., we end up with a functional bicycle wheel.

    If that is the case - our "rim diameter" is judged to be "effective" - hence how we arrive at EFFECTIVE RIM DIAMETER (ERD).


    5. Good practices are as follows:


    Publish ERDs with a reference.

    Example: 606 "~" Flat of 12mm

    This means 606mm as-is aiming for the screwdriver flat of a standard profile 12mm nipple.

    This way other folks can decide one of the following:

    - "I'm doing what he is doing and I'll use the number as-is."
    - "I'm using 16mm standard profile nipples with typical threads and reducing by 1mm on each end for a value of 604mm."
    - "I'm using inverted FSA nipples with a higher aiming point on each end of 4mm for a final value of 612mm."

    References are great. People can use as is - or from experience - adjust to suit their needs.

    Without a reference - your published ERD number means absolutely nothing and cannot be trusted.

    However, one important point remains. The same make and model of rim can change from one rim to the next. So as we always say here on BikeForums.net:

    "It's always best to measure your own ERDs!"

    =8-)
    Thanks for chiming in on this. I do appreciate it and value your opinion, because I know you build wheels all the time.
    I am thinking I will remeasure ERD with the spokes at the bottom of the slot instead of at the top to give me a bit more wiggle room.

    Any input on spokes to create a durable wheel with my current hardware?

    Thanks Again
    Rick

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    It's bothers me that folks try to migrate ERD from something that is dynamic to something that is static reference-wise - the very religious aspect that has come to dominate ERD discussions that Jobst Brandt noted sometime back in a USENET post.

    ERD is not a standard, it does not have any standards, nor is it a whitepaper spec.

    So I'll spill my spiel one more time:


    1. ERD is the distance from the end of one spoke to the end of the opposing spoke in an already built and functional bicycle wheel.


    Keywords: Distance, Ends of Spokes, Already Built, Functional, Wheel


    Important Note: It's not about the rim. It's about the wheel. If you can't grasp this - you will always struggle with the concept of ERD.


    2. When you attempt to come up with an ERD - you are essentially no different than a weather forecaster. You are trying to predict the future. In this case, you are trying to predict what that distance will be from the end of one spoke to the end of the other when your wheel is finished.

    Fortunately, unlike the weather forecaster, the variables you are working with are only a handful:

    - The rim
    - The rim presence or non-presence of raw joint sleeves.
    - The nipple type and profile.
    - The nipple size and thread depth.
    - The spoke thread length.
    - The spoke and thread minimum and maximum insertion behavior.
    - YOUR aiming preferences as a wheel builder.

    The PHYSICAL variables noted above plus YOUR aiming preference is what makes ERD dynamic.

    You the wheel builder ultimately drive what the ERD will be for a particular build.

    That also means the same exact rim can have dozens of different ERDs - not just one.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCXFKN9JvCQ



    3. The are many methods which to use to "predict" in the form of an ESTIMATE what distance in millimeters when a calculation is done will result in a workable spoke length when building a wheel.

    One common one is to:

    a. Use two spokes of known lengths.
    b. Use two standard profile 12mm, 14mm or 16mm nipples.
    c. Set the nipples on each spoke to the desired aiming point that allows at least 1mm of overhead so as to not run out of threads before achieving desired tension.

    I typically aim for the bottom of the screwdriver slot of 12mm standard profile nipples for 1.5mm of overhead.

    Most old 10mm standard profile nipples easily allow for aiming at the top of the nipple. But you rarely see these anymore...


    d. Position in rim and grab the elbows with calipers and snug.
    e. Repeat in several locations and take the average of the caliper readings.
    f. AVERAGED READINGS + COMBINED KNOWN SPOKE LENGTHS = "ESTIMATED" RIM DIAMETER


    4. Of course as we head off to our favorite spoke length calculators and plug in that distance as "rim diameter" - our fingers are crossed.

    With luck - if the spoke length we get works - i.e., we end up with a functional bicycle wheel.

    If that is the case - our "rim diameter" is judged to be "effective" - hence how we arrive at EFFECTIVE RIM DIAMETER (ERD).


    5. Good practices are as follows:


    Publish ERDs with a reference.

    Example: 606 "~" Flat of 12mm

    This means 606mm as-is aiming for the screwdriver flat of a standard profile 12mm nipple.

    This way other folks can decide one of the following:

    - "I'm doing what he is doing and I'll use the number as-is."
    - "I'm using 16mm standard profile nipples with typical threads and reducing by 1mm on each end for a value of 604mm."
    - "I'm using inverted FSA nipples with a higher aiming point on each end of 4mm for a final value of 612mm."

    References are great. People can use as is - or from experience - adjust to suit their needs.

    Without a reference - your published ERD number means absolutely nothing and cannot be trusted.

    However, one important point remains. The same make and model of rim can change from one rim to the next. So as we always say here on BikeForums.net:

    "It's always best to measure your own ERDs!"

    =8-)
    Thanks for coming in to the discussion with this. I can see how a sensible combination of starting spoke depth in the nipple (per choice of the builder), adjustments for peculiarities of your own build plan, and predictions about the spoke behavior under tension can provide a useful estimated rim diameter which will translate into an appropriate effective rim diameter. It would appear that the important thing is for your measurement choices and assumptions to correspond to the actual build choices and finished wheel expectations that you have. So, for example, it doesn't make sense to use the very top of the nipple rather than the bottom of the screw driver slot as your aiming point if you don't want the finished wheel to have some threads above the top of the nipple. Spoke elongation and wheel compression will almost guarantee that will happen. Makes sense.

    And I can see how my wheel building preferences and experience have informed my choices in ERD measurements. For example using DT spokes and 12 mm nipples I have always used the nipple top as the aiming point because of the long unthreaded portion of the bottom of the nipple. With spoke elongation and rim compression I generally have a 1 or 2 mm of spoke above the top of the nipple in the finished wheel. With box rims that is no problem, and even with very light gauge spokes I have never run out of threads before achieving desired tension. But I am satisfied that all the nipple threads have been used. My choices, my estimated rim diameter measurement, my effective rim diameter, my functional wheel. If I wanted a different result, I would make a different measurement or apply different "corrections" to it.

    Thanks again.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  9. #59
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Thanks for coming in to the discussion with this. I can see how a sensible combination of starting spoke depth in the nipple (per choice of the builder), adjustments for peculiarities of your own build plan, and predictions about the spoke behavior under tension can provide a useful estimated rim diameter which will translate into an appropriate effective rim diameter. It would appear that the important thing is for your measurement choices and assumptions to correspond to the actual build choices and finished wheel expectations that you have. So, for example, it doesn't make sense to use the very top of the nipple rather than the bottom of the screw driver slot as your aiming point if you don't want the finished wheel to have some threads above the top of the nipple. Spoke elongation and wheel compression will almost guarantee that will happen. Makes sense.

    And I can see how my wheel building preferences and experience have informed my choices in ERD measurements. For example using DT spokes and 12 mm nipples I have always used the nipple top as the aiming point because of the long unthreaded portion of the bottom of the nipple. With spoke elongation and rim compression I generally have a 1 or 2 mm of spoke above the top of the nipple in the finished wheel. With box rims that is no problem, and even with very light gauge spokes I have never run out of threads before achieving desired tension. But I am satisfied that all the nipple threads have been used. My choices, my estimated rim diameter measurement, my effective rim diameter, my functional wheel. If I wanted a different result, I would make a different measurement or apply different "corrections" to it.

    Thanks again.
    The reason I'm picking "little bones" is that I detected a little "insistence" on aiming for the top of a nipple.

    For a "newbie", insistence can be interpreted as, "that's the way it's supposed to be."

    That's discarding the limiting effect a nipple has too much in my opinion. We have to be careful here - especially when helping others.


    Nowadays most 12mm brass nipples used with modern day 9.0mm - 9.5mm threaded spokes will allow 1-2 threads past the top. But counting on that as a matter of practice can be fatal.

    A good example were the EDCO 12mm brass nipples produced right around the early 1990s. These had an extra thread in them - and they were advertised as a better or stronger nipple because of it.

    Problem was - more threads in the nipple = more restrictive threading behavior. Builders calculating and building by habit - aiming for the top - would be left scratching there heads when they discovered they had run out of threads before achieving the tension they wanted. These nipples allowed the spoke to go about about 2 threads past the flat instead of going to or slight past the top. They were almost indistinguishable from your DT and Wheelsmith cousins.

    If folks consistently grasp that the word "effective" in ERD means exactly that - and the reference is to a particular distance in a wheel...AND test nipple and thread behavior - they'll find themselves off to a good start with the wheels they build 99% of the time.

    That's all...just "bones" - no gripes.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    The reason I'm picking "little bones" is that I detected a little "insistence" on aiming for the top of a nipple.

    For a "newbie", insistence can be interpreted as, "that's the way it's supposed to be."

    That's discarding the limiting effect a nipple has too much in my opinion. We have to be careful here - especially when helping others.


    Nowadays most 12mm brass nipples used with modern day 9.0mm - 9.5mm threaded spokes will allow 1-2 threads past the top. But counting on that as a matter of practice can be fatal.

    A good example were the EDCO 12mm brass nipples produced right around the early 1990s. These had an extra thread in them - and they were advertised as a better or stronger nipple because of it.

    Problem was - more threads in the nipple = more restrictive threading behavior. Builders calculating and building by habit - aiming for the top - would be left scratching there heads when they discovered they had run out of threads before achieving the tension they wanted. These nipples allowed the spoke to go about about 2 threads past the flat instead of going to or slight past the top. They were almost indistinguishable from your DT and Wheelsmith cousins.

    If folks consistently grasp that the word "effective" in ERD means exactly that - and the reference is to a particular distance in a wheel...AND test nipple and thread behavior - they'll find themselves off to a good start with the wheels they build 99% of the time.

    That's all...just "bones" - no gripes.

    =8-)
    That's all good to know. And you're right, I WAS insisting. That was mainly due to relying on Damon Rinard's diagram and instructive text. After reading your approach, I can't say he is (or I was) wrong regarding what was a traditional and effective method, but I see how that is not the only way, likely no longer even the best way IN GENERAL. And it shouldn't be taught as such. Just as in so many other pursuits understanding why you are doing something is so much better than just rote learning. Regarding the risk of running out of spokes, I have likely just been lucky. I do plan to dial the aiming point down in future to avoid that possibility.

    Thanks again.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  11. #61
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    a dynamic distance measurement? really? pretty useless, IME. of what use is an elastic ruler?

    i once rode my bike from L.A. to Jacksonville FL. it measured 8,000 miles. of course i made a detour through Boston. someone else made the same trip, end to end, and tried to convince me it was 5000. turns out they went through Denver, not Boston.

    i once attended a flight school where the instructor, during the discussion on navigation, just about managed to convince everyone that Longitude was Latitude and visa-versa. he was sincere... we finally convinced him otherwise. hard to believe but true.
    Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 02-13-14 at 10:17 AM.

  12. #62
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
    a dynamic distance measurement? really? pretty useless, IME. of what use is an elastic ruler?

    i once rode my bike from L.A. to Jacksonville FL. it measured 8,000 miles. of course i made a detour through Boston. someone else made the same trip, end to end, and tried to convince me it was 5000. turns out they went through Denver, not Boston.

    i was once attended a flight school where the instructor, during the discussion on navigation, just about managed to convince everyone that Longitude was Latitude and visa-versa. he was sincere... we finally convinced him otherwise. hard to believe but true.
    LA to Jacksonville = 8000 miles = Effective Triangulated Distance.

    I'll try it next time I take a trip down to SoCal - perhaps Las Vegas will like me for a day or two?

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  13. #63
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    I love wheel/spoke threads!! Akin to listening to a room full of profs at the college argue their points, and none of them are correct, according to each individual! Too fun!

    OP, piss your money away on DB spokes as it makes you happy, but really, just build the things, cause it ain't gonna make no difference come ride time.

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    if i wasn't such a hypocrite i would build all my wheels with SS 14ga. spokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    I love wheel/spoke threads!! Akin to listening to a room full of profs at the college argue their points, and none of them are correct, according to each individual! Too fun!

    OP, piss your money away on DB spokes as it makes you happy, but really, just build the things, cause it ain't gonna make no difference come ride time.
    Do you know that for a fact?
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

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    "Do you know that for a fact?"

    This Phd guarantees that I do! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    I love wheel/spoke threads!! Akin to listening to a room full of profs at the college argue their points, and none of them are correct, according to each individual! Too fun!
    Yep, it's popcorn hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    "Do you know that for a fact?"

    This Phd guarantees that I do! LOL
    Which Ph.D. is that if you don't mind my asking?
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

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    We all know what BS is.
    Well MS means More S...
    And PhD means Piled Higher and Deeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al1943 View Post
    We all know what BS is.
    Well MS means More S...
    And PhD means Piled Higher and Deeper.
    Oh, THAT Ph.D. Sure, that guarantees that I know EVERYTHING.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

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    Which chain lube should I use to lubricate my nipples?
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Which Ph.D. is that if you don't mind my asking?
    Ph. D. is backwards for D. Ph (Doctor Phil). who it appears is an expert on everything. and should be in the Guiness Book as a consequence for being the only fat guy to write a financially successful diet book. amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Which chain lube should I use to lubricate my nipples?
    mother? is that you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Which chain lube should I use to lubricate my nipples?
    If you run out of apple butter, try Phil's grease. Not Dr. Phil. Phil Wood. Works like a charm.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    To give you some idea of the quantities of stretch we are talking about, a 2.0 mm diameter spoke stretches ~1.0 mm at 120 kgF
    Hmm, I wonder how many KgF are in the CX-Rays in my R540s (16h f/r)... the rear DS ones stretched like 3mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by r0cket88 View Post
    I am still taking in all of the opinions about which spokes to use, but I keep coming back to fietsbobs suggestion in post 4 to use the Alpine III's on the drive side and DB 14/15/14 everywhere else as a strong build.
    Alpine III DS and the Pillar 2.2/1.5/2.0 everywhere else would probably be the ultimate spec IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Having enough spoke length is valuable to a first timer so that you don't have to struggle to "catch" the spoke threads in the nipple as you are getting to the last of the spokes to be laced. Sometimes it can be quite a pull.
    Funny, I never have that trouble. Lacing method? My trick with the heads-in spokes probably contributes: rather than jamming screwdriver handles or whatever into the wheel once it's tensioned, I just put a little extra bend in the heads-in elbows so the spokes don't bow over the flange. (Distinct from pre-stressing by squeezing spokes to bed them in.)

    As for the ERD thing, I like to sidestep it as much as possible; I prefer to trial lace (and maybe even tension if the length is close enough) with some placeholder spokes. it's easy to get caught out taking measurements and making calculations, and nothing's as informative as seeing it in front of you. For a big-dollar build, I'd say it might even be worthwhile to purchase some gal spokes just to see how close your first approximation is.

    But I always have a bunch of old spokes around anyway (and then there's the co-op), because I never throw away DB spokes from a wheel that hasn't broken any (for a wheel of unknown provenance you're probably sweet if the brand is continuous). And as I point out above, it's worth hanging on to plain gauge or even gal spokes just for trial-fitting purposes; it's not like they take up much room.

    Spokes can be slid into sheets of cardboard for storage (it even provides for keeping heads-in/out spokes separate, since there are two sides to the core). You can fit quite a few wheel's worth into a milk crate.

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