LateStart

I am building up an 1990's steel frame in minty NOS condition. I am going to use 'parts on hand' for the build as I have other *serious* bikes and this is just for fun. My perfect result would be as follows:

Able to use 10-speed wheels I have for my other bikes (Shimano / SRAM).

I have the following parts available:

1) full Shimano 600 groupset. (including crank)
2) full Campy NR groupset (including crank)
3) Modern FSA 10-speed crank

Option I: The *ideal* cosmetic solution would be:
> Downtube shifters (likely D/A index 10 speed - will have to buy; frame has bosses)
> Shimano 10-speed chain
> Campy NR Front and Rear Mech
> Campy 53-39 NR Crankset
> Shimano 600 brakes - work better than NR (or find Athena upgrade)
> New TRP brake levers
> 12-25 Shimano cogset - 10 speed
> Rolf Vector Pro Wheels

Option II: Same as above, but Shimano 600 front/rear mech
Option III: Same as II but with FSA crank
Option IV: Same as II, but with Shimano Crank.

If these options work, I will only have to buy:
> Down Tube Shifters
> Brake levers
> Bottom bracket adaptors unless I use the campy crank.

Can I improve option 1 by swapping the rear mech guide wheels with ones from a 10-speed mech?

Shifting doesn't have to be *perfect* but should work well. This bike will only be used for social group rides. I am going to ride a limited range cassette as it will work better with the older rear mechs. Also might throw on a set of Campy Record 7-speed wheels from time-to-time (of course would have to swap the chain).

Note that I am trying to keep the weight down where possible - the modern wheels are much lighter than my old campy wheelsets.

Thanks for the feedback

Crescent Cycle

No, you can not use any indexed shifter with NR/SR derailers.
No, you can not put a 130/135 BCD 39t ring on a 144 BCD NR/SR crank.
Yes, brakes will work
Yes, wheels will work, if you have an appropriately spaced or close enough rear triangle
Yes, you can use the 600 mech with the dura-ace shifters, but it might be a good idea to get some 10 speed jockey pulleys as you said
Yes, you will need FSA/Shimano crank if you want 53/39 gearing, the 10 speed crank will prevent the chain fram falling between chainrings, but you could also just mount those chainrings on the Shimano crank

Is the frame Italian? I don't see why a FSA or Shimano BB wouldn't work with any normal English threaded BB shell, or Italian BB shell if you have Italian threaded cups. No adapter needed. If running a 2 piece crank remember to face the BB shell, vintage frames aren't set up for external cups.

There is no need to swap the 10 speed chain down to a 7 speed chain if it is the right length. The 10 speed chain will work fine with a 7 speed cassette, it just won't index.

Hope that answers your questions

LateStart

Hey thanks for the FAST response.

Clarifications:

> Frame is italian thread. I have Italian thread BB for campy, but not for other cranks - would buy.

> I was suggesting using the *entire* Campy NR crank with chain rings - can they be used with a 10 speed chain?

> If I run the DT shifters in FRICTION mode, can I use the Campy rear mech with 10-speed (with modified guides)? I understand NR mech can handle up to 26T max on the cassette.

Again -- thanks for the info, very helpful.

Crescent Cycle

NR would likely be 52/42 not 53/39. Hopefully you won't need that lower gear. You could make it work with all friction, but there will be some chance of the chain not falling onto the small chainring properly and landing between the chainrings instead. Chains really like to be matched with the right speed FD, but as with most things you can make friction work.

I don't see why you would bother with DA 10-speed downtubes, any old downtube shifters would work in friction. I would pick up some old Campy ones or Simplex Retrofriction which were popular for their performance back in the day. Shifting will be lousy with the NR derailer. Friction shifting with 10 speed and a good derailer is already finicky. Friction shifting with a non-hanging non-slant obsolete geometry derailleur can only be worse, no matter how pretty the mech is. Even back then the NR/SR has a reputation for shifting poorly. It just shifted reliably poorly.

LateStart

Well this was alot quicker than *trying* it. I think you are right.

I have a way to get matching Shimano 600 DT shifters cheap. Sounds like I should just leave the Campy group out of the mix and run the FSA 10sp crank and Shimano 600 group. Just need to buy the brake levers and build it up. THANKS for the info, this was great.

Will probably eBay the campy set -- Its in good shape and I have an NR 180mm crank, probably someone out there will pay up for that hen's tooth.

Crescent Cycle

Well with the 600 group there is a point to getting the DA shifters. It will index your 10 speed wheels. If you want to look closer to period correct, you can move the FSA chainrings to the Shimano crank. What really matters for the front shifting performance and dropping the chain between the rings is the chainrings. Easy swap.

Too bad about the NR, it works fine if you don't mind friction and 5-7 speeds in the back, especially if you use modern hyperglide freewheels. It just won't ever be happy with a 10 speed wheel unless you have some amazing fine motor skills. NR is one of the prettiest groupsets ever made.

zacster

Shifting with an NR derailleur on a 10 speed wheel will actually be great. I have 2 bikes set up this way, one is NR the other SR. Both use the original Campy downtube friction shifters. I also have never had the chain fall between the chainrings on the bike with an SR crank. The other one has a Chorus 10 on the original Zeus square taper bottom bracket. I couldn't get the fixed cup off to replace the BB with the Chorus cartridge BB.

When shifting with either bike, all it takes is a small movement of the shifter either way and it just clicks into gear. Because the spacing is so tight and the cassette has ramps, you don't find yourself between gears. The new chains also help. I've said this a lot of times on the forum, the big shifting improvement was the cassette with the ramps and chains that glide over them. This was created to make indexed shifting better, but I don't think anybody bothered to try it with friction where it works just as well.

So, bottom line is that 10 speed with friction works, and it works well. You can use any derailleur if you are using friction. Any 10 speed chain will work, but I have also found that a 9 speed Shimano chain will work with a 10 speed Campy cassette but not the other way around. Front chainrings don't matter as much, but 5/6 speed chainrings may chatter with the narrow chain.

For brakes, I bought a pair of Tektro road bike levers and brakes and they feel and work great. No need to spend a lot of money there. These were to replace the Modolo Speedy brakes on my Davidson. My other bike has Kronos levers and SR brakes.

Crescent Cycle

I've used friction with hyperglide, and as I said before it does help a lot. The derailer geometry is just not good with the NR and I personally don't think 10 speed friction works that great with better derailers than the NR. I can't see how there would be an improvement switching from a more modern derailer to a NR unit. I have a hard time believing that you don't find yourself between gears, especially when the NR doesn't even have floating pulleys. With floating pulleys, indexed geometry derailers and indexed shifters you can still find yourself between gears if not properly adjusted. If you want to make it work, like I said before, with friction you can make things work. I just don't think it will work well.

zacster

I've been riding this bike this way for over 5 years now, and it works great and does not go between gears. Maybe the "better" derailleurs don't work well with 10 speed because they try to compensate the wrong way. Maybe the lack of float lets me feel the snap into gear. The bike is also dead silent.

I've set up 2 other people's bikes this way as well that didn't have Campy but they found it worked well also.

All this said, I have my carbon bike set up with indexed Chorus 10 speed, and that just goes click, click, click and never misses a shift.

Crescent Cycle

I think you're just better at friction shifting than I am and we have different definitions of what works well.

zacster

It doesn't just work well, it works amazingly well. I think you'd be surprised at how well it all works.

chewa

The advantage of good friction shifters is that you can "trim" them anyway, to achieve a silent run.

I've never run 10 speed on friction, but 9 has worked ok.

fietsbob

Friction .. another vote .. Of note : 8 was as wide as cassettes got.. more than that, 9+
and the spaces between cogs got narrower and so a smaller target to find the next gear..
because they're closer together.. and chain is thinner too rollers, side plates .. all thinner..
and costs more $.

I have an old NR RD .. they move sideways across the cluster with less cable pull than the cable pull
needs of the Deore RD .. for comparison ..

Use the old <C> RD with 6 speed F/W, a wider space between the cogs.. than 7..

(8 is adding 1 cog spaced like the other 7)

Crescent Cycle

Technically 11 speed got a little wider.

blamester

I'm think those 10 spd da shifters are index only. The 9 speed where friction and index.
I have dual dts and I use friction all the time on 7/8/9 and 10 spd cassettes.
It's all about the modern cassettes and chains.

LateStart

What a good discussion! Thanks for all of the viewpoints. Since I have almost all of the bits on hand, I may go ahead and try a couple of the set up and see what happens. I will take pictures and update the group with the final outcome. I actually need to get the frame painted, so the *final* setup will be awhile. But I may build and do a few test rides on the naked frame.

peterw_diy

"Also might throw on a set of Campy Record 7-speed wheels from time-to-time (of course would have to swap the chain)."

And adjust the RD limit screws!

ultraman6970

If you are going to use down tube shifters in friction mode, you can use whatever you want. If you are going to use indexing... then I wont even bother to continue typing