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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastJake View Post

    As I said you'll need a new, longer chain. And a MTB rear derailer to handle the 32T cog.

    The bike that you ride makes you fast! Ride any bike enough and you will be fast. But I will admit I'm fond of my carbon USPS Trek.
    I get it! The cassette is off. There is a 600 long derailleur that I am going to get. (: New chain. And I think I will go for a 51- compact crank. That will still give me the downhill power I want. (Currently 53-39). I found a good LBS the next town over. They are happy to order parts so I'm going to buy from them.

    Funny, Jake. I used to think I was so fast back in the 90's b/c I was always in the front of the pack with the guys. But it was probably just MY bike. Now that I can't keep up, it must be THEIR bikes! Ha, ha! That's a nice bike you have.

  2. #52
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Math problem.. 23 does not divide by 2 or 3 as whole numbers, 21 and 24 will .

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    Math problem.. 23 does not divide by 2 or 3 as whole numbers, 21 and 24 will .
    Yes, I accidentally got this from a CL post - a beautiful Bianchi upgrade that was a typo, but modern components and inspiration for me all the same. I wish I could edit the title of this thread, but can't. I learned a lot here and will update my progress hoping it will help another woman that is DIYing - or a guy since there is some curiosity and interest about Trek 2300's. I actually do well in math, algebra and geometry - thank God we don't have to hire a tutor for our three kids and the 23 didn't make sense to me either but I'm new to this and didn't know for sure. I stand corrected! And not on that alone! My husband would agree but the kids still think I'm pretty smart.

  4. #54
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Ive been OK with a 7 speed freewheel hub bike x3 . a triple crank .. is 21 'speeds'

    [ though now I use my IGH bike the most , as it shifts at any rate of speed . even stopped ..]

    derailleur drivetrains have to be moving and rotating ..

    more math : count teeth and discover the ratios that the chainring turning the rear cog represents.(ex.. 40:20=2:1)

    that is the actual gear. F '/, R x wheel diameter gives an equivalent wheel diameter as if it were a big old highwheeler

    turning the pedal once... gets you down the road that circumference.

    then you can see what the "speeds" really are.
    (often the ratios are overlapping so not really having 21 actual different gears)

    as aGo fast race style bike its pretty easy to get into tapping the kid's college funds
    to get the latest stuff..

    but one constraint is all the new bikes have 130mm wide axles ..
    the wheels in the 7 speed era were narrower.. 126mm..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 03-01-14 at 06:16 PM.

  5. #55
    Constant tinkerer FastJake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ofus View Post
    I get it! The cassette is off. There is a 600 long derailleur that I am going to get. (: New chain. And I think I will go for a 51- compact crank. That will still give me the downhill power I want. (Currently 53-39). I found a good LBS the next town over. They are happy to order parts so I'm going to buy from them.
    I'd wait on the crank until you try the cassette. If you still need lower gears, then consider a compact or triple. But for now the 53 will still give you a nice high cruising range with the 14T as your smallest cassette cog.

    BTW a long cage 600 RD will not work. It's a common misconception that the long cage is for bigger cogs but really it just gives you more teeth capacity (for when you're using a triple crank for example.) You need a MTB rear derailer for the 32T cassette. Deore, LX, XT, XTR, Alivio, Acera X, STX, are all fine choices that will work perfectly with your setup. Just avoid the super new 10-speed rear derailers.
    Why "derailer" is the correct way to spell the gear-change mechanism: sheldonbrown.com/derailer.html

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post

    then you can see what the "speeds" really are.
    (often the ratios are overlapping so not really having 21 actual different gears)

    as aGo fast race style bike its pretty easy to get into tapping the kid's college funds
    to get the latest stuff..
    Yes, my bike is 126mm. I was wondering what the point of diminishing return is on gears. Tax return is coming. My husband knows I want a new bike. We have a lot of other stuff we NEED to do right now, but sometimes he spoils me. My mom is giving us a Silverado with a bike rack on it. We're going to throw all the surfboards in and load it up with bikes! Can't wait!

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastJake View Post
    But for now the 53 will still give you a nice high cruising range with the 14T as your smallest cassette cog.

    You need a MTB rear derailer for the 32T cassette. Deore, LX, XT, XTR, Alivio, Acera X, STX, are all fine choices that will work perfectly with your setup. Just avoid the super new 10-speed rear derailers.
    Thank you Jake, very good insight and will save me some hassle. I'll try it without a new crank first, too. Going to order the parts Monday. Can't wait to try out an 11+sp one day. If this goes well I may upgrade my daughter's Trek MTB. I made a surfboard rack for her bike so she can ride it down a paved path, onto a dirt path, over rocks, over RR tracks, over more rocks, through reeds onto a compact sand path with her board - much faster than walking. She's a really strong 14yo but it's hard to get that bike up the hill (about 70degrees) with a board on it. The bike itself is heavy too, but all her cash and a lot of ours goes to surf gear.

  8. #58
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    costs a bit of money , but I have 20+ years of use out of Phil woods freewheel hubs in 126..

    one down side of low cost freewheel hubs is broken axles .. Phil solved the issue 30 years ago ..


    but as I say internal gear hubs are a lot better now.. 5 to 8speed but only 1 chain ring and cog .

    there are 11 and 14 speed , but they need 135 wide frames.

  9. #59
    Constant tinkerer FastJake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ofus View Post
    I was wondering what the point of diminishing return is on gears.
    In my opinion, 8-speed is enough. That's what I have on my Trek with full Dura Ace including some C50 carbon tubular wheels. So it's not like I was on a real tight budget when I put the thing together. Mainly it's my objection to the never-ending "more speeds" nonsense. All my bikes are 7 or 8 speed rears and it allows me to mix and match quite easily.

    Above 8-speeds the chains get narrower (chains and cassettes wear out faster) and derailer adjustment becomes more finicky. No thanks.
    Why "derailer" is the correct way to spell the gear-change mechanism: sheldonbrown.com/derailer.html

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastJake View Post
    In my opinion, 8-speed is enough. That's what I have on my Trek with full Dura Ace including some C50 carbon tubular wheels.
    Above 8-speeds the chains get narrower (chains and cassettes wear out faster) and derailer adjustment becomes more finicky. No thanks.
    My almost LBS had a Shimano 8sp cassette they tried on my hub but the 8th gear wouldn't fit. I am really looking forward to trying the 32T cassette. Re: narrower chains - You have some great insights Jake. I HATE finicky.

    My friend has a new Miele with Di2. Her bike blows mine away. She is really gracious and never made me feel bad when I rode with her and another friend and I enjoyed the ride anyway. I enjoy riding so much I don't care if I am alone, but it would be nice to meet up with friends too.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ofus View Post
    I was wondering what the point of diminishing return is on gears.
    It's all in what speed range you need, ease of shifting pattern and a possible weight advantage.
    First of all, the number of different combinations doesn't equal the number of usefully different gears. Expect abt 2/3 as many usefully different gears as you have combinations. I run a 3x7 with a tight ratio road cassette and a MTB triple on my commuter. It's a comfy ride that spins out at about 25 mph/40 kmh. No big deal for me to coast those precious seconds that happens on an urban commute. The granny gear is pretty much limited to
    snow use. Now, I could get the same range and ratios by going to a 2x10 setup.
    It'd be a tad lighter crank, I'd avoid some front shifts and it'd all wear a lot faster. No thanks.
    But if I thought i needed a wider speed range, then I'd either need to put up with bigger steps between ratios or go to more gears.
    Last edited by dabac; 03-01-14 at 09:55 PM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    It's a comfy ride that spins out at about 25 mph/40 kmh.
    I recall the top downhill speed I could get coming down the longest, highest hill in Atlanta in 1991 was 22MPH. I need uphill climbing on this "corncob" cassette without losing too much downhill speed (:

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ofus View Post
    I recall the top downhill speed I could get coming down the longest, highest hill in Atlanta in 1991 was 22MPH. I need uphill climbing on this "corncob" cassette without losing too much downhill speed (:
    In that speed range, on a 28"/622 mm/700C bike, you can drop to a MTB or a touring triple with no problem.
    Has the option of 8-of-9 sprockets on a 7-speed body been mentioned yet? Or 9-of-10 on a 7-speed body for that matter. Assuming it's a freehub-equipped bike, that bypasses any issues with axle width or wheel swap.

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    "My almost LBS had a Shimano 8sp cassette they tried on my hub but the 8th gear wouldn't fit."

    Find a new LBS. A 7s hub will only fit a full cluster 7s or less. You can fit 7 cogs of an 8s etc. but not a full 8+s cassette. If you're relying on a LBS and that one seriously tried to mount a full 8s cassette on a 126mm 7s freehub, run away .

  15. #65
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ofus View Post
    .... I was wondering what the point of diminishing return is on gears.....!
    That can vary depending on the rider & terrain conditions etc.
    I'm an old guy with emphysema.
    I basically have to "spin" lower gears at a narrow cadence range (80-85 RPM) so I don't "gas out"
    My bikes are 9 speeds with (usually) 12-23 cassettes and 22-32-36/38T triples.
    I usually ride the middle ring for around town, but have the granny in case I get a severe head wind etc. I might use the large ring (which basically gives me about 1.5 higher gears) if out in the countryside with a tail wind. That just kind of depends on which combination gives me a better chain line as much as anything else, since in those conditions I'm usually just trying to log miles and go for endurance by backing off just a bit.
    So, around town, I'm usually cruising along in 32-13/14 on my hybrid.
    A slight change in the head wind and I can make a slight change in my gearing.
    I'm not fast, so shifting to a 1T smaller cog might only improve my speed about 7% (1 MPH), but IT'S 7% faster than if I didn't have that gear.
    I am sticking to 9 speed since that 1 extra cog raises the price of cassettes & chains beyond cost effectiveness for my limited retirement income.

  16. #66
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    that 8th cog was added on the end of a 7 speed stack, it is the same spacing as the other 7,
    hence hub had to get wider.. 126 >130..

    As a Touring cyclist I thought the gear selection of Shimano's K cassette 13~34t was just fine,

    the 8th cog allowed a 12t, 7 the top cog was 13.

    took several load carrying tours, 50:14 high, 24:34 low 40t chainring in the middle.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterw_diy View Post
    A 7s hub will only fit a full cluster 7s or less. You can fit 7 cogs of an 8s etc. but not a full 8+s cassette. If you're relying on a LBS and that one seriously tried to mount a full 8s cassette on a 126mm 7s freehub, run away .
    Maybe they should run away from me (: I am inexperienced and I like to experiment when trying new disciplines so I asked him to try it. I'm satisfied with ordering the 32T 7 sp. cassette. But I am researching lightweight steel bikes that I can upgrade. I love the new carbon bikes but the long life of steel appeals to me if I can get the performance I want through an upgrade.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post

    more math : count teeth and discover the ratios that the chainring turning the rear cog represents.(ex.. 40:20=2:1)
    Thanks for the math lesson. This will help me in the future too. My husband left his Cannondale out in the rain that I bought him before we got married. Not happy but it fits my daughter who won't stop growing so we're going to make it an upgrade project this summer. Much easier since it's not carbon!

    And her Trek 820 weighs a ton but I'm going to do some cosmetic upgrades for my son to ride it next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
    That can vary depending on the rider & terrain conditions etc.
    I'm an old guy with emphysema.
    I basically have to "spin" lower gears at a narrow cadence range (80-85 RPM) so I don't "gas out"
    That's fantastic Bill! I wish you could meet my husband. He has asthma and I dragged him on a cycling honeymoon back in '91. There was a terrible headwind the first day surrounded by sunflower fields. He affectionately refers to it as "Sunflower Hell" (: I'm going to take apart his Cannondale this summer with my daughter and hopefully with the bike rack on the truck I'll get him cruising again.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    It's all in what speed range you need, ease of shifting pattern and a possible weight advantage.
    First of all, the number of different combinations doesn't equal the number of usefully different gears. Expect abt 2/3 as many usefully different gears as you have combinations. I run a 3x7 with a tight ratio road cassette and a MTB triple on my commuter. It's a comfy ride that spins out at about 25 mph/40 kmh.
    I usually have my cassette on the largest gear except on extreme uphill. I don't know why I like to see how fast the bike will go but it gives me something to do. 25mph has always been elusive to me. My computer no longer works and I am about 128 lbs. now so I may have picked up some speed over the years (: I don't care about that as much anymore, but I am surprised how much I still enjoy being on my bike no matter how far out I get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ofus View Post
    I usually have my cassette on the largest gear except on extreme uphill.
    This doesn't make sense. The cassette is the stack of sprockets at the rear. You'd want to use the biggest one on an extreme uphill.

    I'm assuming you mean that you run your chain on the biggest chainring(up front) except on extreme uphills.

    You might want to rethink that. Bicycling is a lot more about endurance than it is about brute strength. Keep those cranks turning. The stock recommendation is to aim for a cadence (pedalling rate) at about 80-100 turns/minute.
    It might feel odd at first, you may start to bounce in the saddle. but your knees will thank you for it. They don't really approve of pushing hard-and-slow for extended periods. Spinning fast-and-light is a lot more to their liking.

    And there's cross-chaining too. Not that important on a double, but if you're running the chain more diagonally than actually needed, you're losing a tiny bit of effort and running life for nothing compared to a chain that's running straighter. And as ratios repeat, you're not gaining anything by staying on a diagonal gear when there's a "straight" gear available.

  22. #72
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    So we're stuck at 126? Doesn't mean we're stuck with 7s.

    You can have 8 or maybe 9 of 10 on your existing hub. Or, you can totally have the full monty if you lace a 8/9/10 hub (or your old hub with a new cassette body) into an off-centre rim; see the link in my sig for details.

    Quote Originally Posted by likebike23 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    Will everybody please stop saying a new wheel is necessary for a 8/9/10s cassette?
    This is true, but not always so simple. If the stock wheel is 126mm OLD, it will need a new axle as well.
    Not so. You don't even need a new axle when going from 130 to 135 - the amount of axle in the dropout doesn't matter as long as it's enough to locate it; the locknuts and skewer do all the holding. The only part required is the spacer.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    So we're stuck at 126? Doesn't mean we're stuck with 7s.

    You can have 8 or maybe 9 of 10 on your existing hub. Or, you can totally have the full monty if you lace a 8/9/10 hub (or your old hub with a new cassette body) into an off-centre rim; see the link in my sig for details.



    Not so. You don't even need a new axle when going from 130 to 135 - the amount of axle in the dropout doesn't matter as long as it's enough to locate it; the locknuts and skewer do all the holding. The only part required is the spacer.
    True statements all. I'm simply trying to offer solutions which I feel are within the realm of possibility to the OP based on my perceived notion of their abilities and those of the shops they are dealing with. While you or I could figure out a way, not everyone has the time or inclination. My perception was based on the prior posts, maybe my perception is wrong.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    This doesn't make sense. The cassette is the stack of sprockets at the rear. You'd want to use the biggest one on an extreme uphill.

    I'm assuming you mean that you run your chain on the biggest chainring(up front) except on extreme uphills.
    Yes, did you read my original post? I said "except uphill". I do get it spinning on the largest gear, but my corncob cassette is really small so no big deal.

    Most recently I've ended up being on the small chain ring going uphill, chagrined to say. Believe me, I am experiencing all 14 of the gears and with its current teeth it's not enough! Ha! My kids are whipping me into shape and I'm learning that being fit means more than what you weigh on a scale.

    My daughter trains 4 hours a day. I wish she would hit some beaches that don't involve a 3 mile round trip walk involving at least one steep hill. Or do I? I'm having fun with all 3 of the kids and I feel great!
    Last edited by 5ofus; 03-03-14 at 10:17 PM. Reason: incomplete

  25. #75
    Keepin it Wheel RubeRad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
    had me scratching my head too.
    Haha, SRAM already makes an elite 1x11 mtn group, all you gotta do is build a 23-cog cassette! Before long Campy will offer 12-speed, so just slap a 12-speed and 11-speed onto a super-long freehub. Done! (spread those forks -- or get a fatbike frame)

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