Wheel building - getting rid of hop
As my intro to wheel building, I swapped out a damaged front rim on my easton EA90SL front wheel (24 straight pull spokes). I re used the same spokes, which is probably not the best idea according to a lot of posts I read after I ordered the new rim. :lol: Hindsight.
I checked the spoke tension before i disassembled the wheel and they were all around 120 (about 21 on that park gauge for 1.7mm spokes) Laced it up and now I'm at the point where the wheel is pretty evenly tensioned all around, dished right and pretty true all around (not perfect yet but certainly in the ball park) and there is a noticeable "hop" in the wheel, so that is my next area of focus is to eliminate that and then finish truing. The wheel deflects downward at about 3 o'clock and the upward deflection is at about 6 o'clock, so they are not on opposite sides of the wheel. I guess that surprised me a little bit. I don't have a run out gauge but the difference between the high and low points seems to be pretty large, like 5mm or so. I can't live with that! so the solution according to Sheldon (and my brandt book) is to loosen the spokes near the low point and tighten them near the high point but I though I would ask one of you savants what I should expect to see as a result of that - since the tensions are good all around will that leave me with a section of lower tensioned spokes when I'm done? Is that acceptable? |
I think its better to eliminate the hop before achieving substantial tension, I'd back them all off and start over.
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radial true should be done at the early stages of tension. once the radial is set it will stay theere for the remainder of the build for the most part. i would loosen all nipple 1-2 turns and redo the radial true
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Alright - it was difficult to see the hop when the wheel was looser. I'll give it a whirl.
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Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
(Post 16539095)
Alright - it was difficult to see the hop when the wheel was looser. I'll give it a whirl.
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Oh, I have a truing stand. :) I should clarify - it was difficult to quantify the hop, it was apparent that there WAS hop. No biggie, I'll loosen it up and redo. The only other thing I have going on today is staying out of the rain and smoking a brisket.
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honestly, if i had a 5mm hop in a wheel with relatively even spoke tension, i'd toss it and start with a new rim. it's probably out of round, especially so in this case, after having read the description of the hop.
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Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan
(Post 16539198)
honestly, if i had a 5mm hop in a wheel with relatively even spoke tension, i'd toss it and start with a new rim.
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Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
(Post 16539144)
Oh, I have a truing stand. :) I should clarify - it was difficult to quantify the hop, it was apparent that there WAS hop. No biggie, I'll loosen it up and redo. The only other thing I have going on today is staying out of the rain and smoking a brisket.
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Originally Posted by reptilezs
(Post 16539386)
keep the lateral true in check but don't be super anal about it and you will see the hop better. in the early stages of tension use big turns like 1/2 or full turns
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5 mm - That's a lot! I agree with the others to de-tension and start again. I tension in stages, correcting the radial runout first and then the lateral, progressing to the next stage only when right. Are you gauging tension by feel or by measurement.
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Originally Posted by Matariki
(Post 16540596)
5 mm - That's a lot! I agree with the others to de-tension and start again. I tension in stages, correcting the radial runout first and then the lateral, progressing to the next stage only when right. Are you gauging tension by feel or by measurement.
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My method, after lacing the wheel, is to put my thumb nail into the last spoke thread and tighten the nipple until my thumbnail stops it. That way I know all of the spokes are starting in the same place. Then I count turns on the nipples while I gradually built tension into the wheel. Since I start in the same place and tighten each nipple an equal amount, the rim should stay round.
Your fancy-boy wheel with 24 straight pull spokes will demand some extra attention to be sure that you're actually tightening each nipple an equal amount and not just spinning the spokes, some more than others. |
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
(Post 16540669)
My method, after lacing the wheel, is to put my thumb nail into the last spoke thread and tighten the nipple until my thumbnail stops it. That way I know all of the spokes are starting in the same place. Then I count turns on the nipples while I gradually built tension into the wheel. Since I start in the same place and tighten each nipple an equal amount, the rim should stay round.
Your fancy-boy wheel with 24 straight pull spokes will demand some extra attention to be sure that you're actually tightening each nipple an equal amount and not just spinning the spokes, some more than others. Getting radial right requires starting with it right. I use a HF dial indicator on a magnetic base with my home built trueing stand. My wheels are ±.010" (0.25mm) radial and ±.003" (0.08mm) axial (side to side); much better than the tire manufacturers hold. My favorite rims are Velocity Dyad and Aerohead because they are round and square, so easy and fast to build. |
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
(Post 16540669)
My method, after lacing the wheel, is to put my thumb nail into the last spoke thread and tighten the nipple until my thumbnail stops it. That way I know all of the spokes are starting in the same place. Then I count turns on the nipples while I gradually built tension into the wheel. Since I start in the same place and tighten each nipple an equal amount, the rim should stay round.
Your fancy-boy wheel with 24 straight pull spokes will demand some extra attention to be sure that you're actually tightening each nipple an equal amount and not just spinning the spokes, some more than others. |
Originally Posted by nfmisso
(Post 16541095)
+1
Getting radial right requires starting with it right. I use a HF dial indicator on a magnetic base with my home built trueing stand. My wheels are ±.010" (0.25mm) radial and ±.003" (0.08mm) axial (side to side); much better than the tire manufacturers hold. My favorite rims are Velocity Dyad and Aerohead because they are round and square, so easy and fast to build. Hey, if you think Velocity rims are round and flat, you gotta try Kinlin. I find Velocity to be horrible in comparison. |
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
(Post 16541102)
Sorry Grouch, but your method is BS. Hey, I do it too, but I know it is not going to give me anywhere near round wheels, laterally true wheels, or even tensions. Not even as a starting point. The variation in spoke lengths, rim diameters around the circle, etc. make such an automated approach almost useless. I just do it, because I have to start somewhere. So I don't say don't do it, just understand the limitations of the method.
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
(Post 16541141)
Uh - what, exactly are you saying? First you say it's BS, then you say "I don't say don't do it, just understand the limitations of the method." What is your point? Don't tell us what's wrong, tell us the method that you've found so much better.
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Grouch, please accept my apology. I shouldn't have said BS but rather just that I disagreed with the efficacy of the method. There was no reason for me to characterize your opinion that way. Sorry.
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Even a 2.5mm difference from round (assuming the high and low are equally far off) is too much for a fairly evenly tensioned wheel. I would consider that rim to be defective.
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
(Post 16541174)
I'm saying that you can do it, but it won't give you a wheel that starts remotely true or evenly tensioned. But since you have to start somewhere, why not. The BS is in giving too much credit to the method. I know of no way what will start you off true and evenly tensioned.
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman
(Post 16541348)
Even a 2.5mm difference from round (assuming the high and low are equally far off) is too much for a fairly evenly tensioned wheel. I would consider that rim to be defective.
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
(Post 16541397)
FWIW, I once built a 40 spoke tandem wheel using a Hadley hub, Dyad rim and Alpine spokes that required no final truing at all. None. That obviously doesn't happen all the time, but it happened once. I think that speaks pretty well to my wheel building method.
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
(Post 16540669)
My method, after lacing the wheel, is to put my thumb nail into the last spoke thread and tighten the nipple until my thumbnail stops it. That way I know all of the spokes are starting in the same place. Then I count turns on the nipples while I gradually built tension into the wheel. Since I start in the same place and tighten each nipple an equal amount, the rim should stay round.
Your fancy-boy wheel with 24 straight pull spokes will demand some extra attention to be sure that you're actually tightening each nipple an equal amount and not just spinning the spokes, some more than others. |
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
(Post 16541557)
So you started at the base of the threads as you described above and tensioned the wheel with equal numbers of turns at every spoke. And without changing the numbers of turns applied to each spoke in the slightest, when you had the average tension you wanted, the wheel was essentially perfect (in other words within expected tolerances) with regard to tension balance from spoke to spoke and lateral and radial true. Including any changes due to spoke stress-relieving, adjustment of the spoke line from hub to rim, spoke windup, etc. That is an amazing story. One in a million at least. Amazing!
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