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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WK95 View Post
    Would this idea actually work or am I missing something?
    Other posters have pointed out the problems, although Campagnolo has a solution.

    Campagnolo's official installation procedure for Ultrashift levers testing cable friction involves observing rear derailleur movement with a 1kg (2.2 pound) weight hanging off the shifter end.

    http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/ser...videoid_24.jsp

    You don't need to measure anything once your installation has aged a bit. If it's noticeably sluggish shifting to smaller cogs or works OK skipping two cogs but not getting to the next one there's too much friction for some reason like frayed cable strands or a dirty rear loop. If not you're fine regardless of how much time has passed since your last cable and/or housing replacement.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 03-07-14 at 10:22 PM.

  2. #27
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    It's entertaining that threads like this go on and on even after the OP has the answer he wants. I should not talk, because I'll probably add to the chaff once I'm retired.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  3. #28
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    It's entertaining that threads like this go on and on even after the OP has the answer he wants. I should not talk, because I'll probably add to the chaff once I'm retired.
    Quitter!
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    It's entertaining that threads like this go on and on even after the OP has the answer he wants. I should not talk, because I'll probably add to the chaff once I'm retired.
    The OP was based on a false premise, namely that shift performance was related to cable tension. The on point responses were either proceeding from that false assumption, or refuting it. The rest were just tangents, and in the normal way of BF, tangents off the tangents.
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  5. #30
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    The OP was based on a false premise, namely that shift performance was related to cable tension. The on point responses were either proceeding from that false assumption, or refuting it. The rest were just tangents, and in the normal way of BF, tangents off the tangents.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
    Yes, but will my check be co-signed?
    Depends. Are you offering to write one, or seeking to cash one?
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  7. #32
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Take brakes for example. I am using Zero Gravity Ti calipers, and for some reason I am able to get the pinch bolt tightened up with the pads squeezed really tightly against the rim. So I need to have plenty of adjuster barrel travel available to loosen up the calipers. So I start with the adjusters nearly fully extended. Then after I screw them in a few turns to open the pads up a bit, I have the adjusters just about in the middle of their range. That way I can go either way as needed, tighter if the cables stretch or looser if I need to open up the calipers more than the quick release allows to get the wheel out with a fat tire on it.
    Unless tyre clearance with the QR open is an issue, I always start with the barrel adjusters screwed all the way in. I clamp the cable in order to pre-load the system to bed-in any ferrules and then feel the pad gap at the lever, and if it's not enough I back off the pinch bolt a bit until I can carefully pull just the right amount of cable through with the lever - this is pretty accurate, and gives you the full range of the barrel adjuster to take up pad wear. And it looks pro.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    the shifter would have to have more "throw" built into the first shift than the rest. Is that the case?
    Yep, if you disassemble an indexed DT lever it's pretty easy to see. Bigger gap to the final indent.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Yes, the lever has extra throw in the "start" position of the cam. They do this to make assembly of the the cam into the spring carrier easier.
    Actually no, since as I mention above, it was a thing with DT shifters too. It may help with assembly but they'd have done it anyway if it didn't - I surmise the purpose of this feature is to allow for the slight springiness you get both in a new cable because it bows around the BB guide, and in used cables because they've taken a set and bend too far around the BB guide. It's a pretty safe bet the need for this wasn't initially anticipated; I'd hazard the earliest indexed systems may not have featured a larger gap to the final indent and shifted like crap to the smallest cog as a result.

    As for whether Campy runs the slackest, I have three bikes, each with a different brand of brifter and I just put them all in the small cog to see.

    The first bike has 9s Mirage Ergos, upgraded with Centaur bits, running through a Shiftmate to a RD-7700 (although I'm pretty sure the RD isn't a factor). The cable on that is pretty much exactly between taut and floppy; just enough tension to make a low note when plucked. The second bike is rocking RED front and back, and sits just a tad looser in the small cog. The third bike has 9s 105 STI, shifting another RD-7700, and it's the same as the SRAM bike. (If you want a look at the bikes, I've just updated my Velospace entries, copy/paste the links <----)

    But anyway, the amount of tension in the cable in top gear is what it is when you set the high limit properly (and it's highly sensitive to the screw's position). On each of my bikes, the chain has the same gap to the next-biggest cog both above and below the cassette. If you're suffering poor shifting due to drivetrain wear it often helps to back off the high limit screw a tad, compromising the alignment a bit just so the chain can make it onto the cog.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    As to your reference to finding the no slack/zero tension point when stringing a cable, you're making the simple complicated. Basically, pull down the cable pulling out as much slack as you can and fastening. Then bring the lever to the first shift, and turn the barrel adjuster until it completes the corresponding shift.
    I recommend complicating that a bit, at least when using a fresh cable or particularly housing, especially for the pros to avoid the most common reason for a boomerang - before bothering with any adjustment, haul on the shifter without pedalling (use your judgement re how much force the shifter can handle), then pedal out the cable tension before releasing the shifter and re-clamping the cable; often another few mm pulls through. My RD adjustments stick; I don't get boomerangs over that.

  8. #33
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    I recommend complicating that a bit, at least when using a fresh cable or particularly housing, especially for the pros to avoid the most common reason for a boomerang - before bothering with any adjustment, haul on the shifter without pedalling (use your judgement re how much force the shifter can handle), then pedal out the cable tension before releasing the shifter and re-clamping the cable; often another few mm pulls through. My RD adjustments stick; I don't get boomerangs over that.
    This is similar to my process of "preloading" the cable before making the initial adjustment. In my experience, new cables and housing (or even reinstalling old housing) have a little free play in the housing ends and ferrules. Hauling on the shifter (Kimmo) or preloading the cable (me) takes up that free play and makes the initial index adjustment much more reliable.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    Unless tyre clearance with the QR open is an issue, I always start with the barrel adjusters screwed all the way in. I clamp the cable in order to pre-load the system to bed-in any ferrules and then feel the pad gap at the lever, and if it's not enough I back off the pinch bolt a bit until I can carefully pull just the right amount of cable through with the lever - this is pretty accurate, and gives you the full range of the barrel adjuster to take up pad wear. And it looks pro.
    My experience is that most bike shops do it that way - and I hate it. It's fine until there's the least bit of untrueness of the rim or the brake caliper is just a bit off to one side. Then it leaves no easy way to loosen the brake adjustment to avoid having the rim touching a pad until I get around to fixing the issue - especially if the QR of the brake is either nonexistent or the type that is only on/off.

    I'd much rather have the barrel adjuster set so there's still at least a little bit of adjustment left to loosen the cable in case that is called for during a ride.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post

    I'd much rather have the barrel adjuster set so there's still at least a little bit of adjustment left to loosen the cable in case that is called for during a ride.
    +1, I consider 2 turns out the zero, or starting place. Let's say the bike gets knocked over and the RD hanger gets bent in a hair, half way out on a 100 mile ride. Having the room to slacken the cable easily (no tools) allows full function until I get home and can deal with it properly.

    The same reasoning applies to setting up race bikes that may depend on neutral support. There'a always the risk that the cassette placement of a donated wheel won't be identical, so the ability to trim is a valuable. I especially miss the downtube adjusters which allow a wheel to be swapped in and the rider sent off to adjust trim on the fly.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 03-08-14 at 09:39 PM.
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  11. #36
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    it leaves no easy way to loosen the brake adjustment
    Au contraire - on the odd bike without Shimano brakes it's a good idea to leave some leeway, but Shimano QRs are another adjustment unto themselves.

    Open one halfway and see if you can budge it by operating the brake, go on.

  12. #37
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I especially miss the downtube adjusters which allow a wheel to be swapped in and the rider sent off to adjust trim on the fly.
    You mean these?



    I didn't realise they were being phased out; I figured it was just a dumb move by a few brands to leave them off. They're usually replaced by inline adjusters, but most of them kinda suck, except the rare fancy ones with a half-exposed thumbwheel midway along.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    You mean these?....
    I didn't realise they were being phased out; I figured it was just a dumb move by a few brands to leave them off. They're usually replaced by inline adjusters, but most of them kinda suck, except the rare fancy ones with a half-exposed thumbwheel midway along.
    As far as I know, DT boss adapters are still being made, or at least there's plenty of old stock out there. However, since downtube levers aren't used OEM, most new frames don't use those bosses anymore. Instead, they have brazed on cable stops, which is fine, except that many no longer use threaded stops which take an adjuster. That means rider adjustment on the fly isn't possible and, IMO more important, there's no cable adjuster t all for FDs.
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  14. #39
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    As far as I know, DT boss adapters are still being made, or at least there's plenty of old stock out there. However, since downtube levers aren't used OEM, most new frames don't use those bosses anymore. Instead, they have brazed on cable stops, which is fine, except that many no longer use threaded stops which take an adjuster. That means rider adjustment on the fly isn't possible and, IMO more important, there's no cable adjuster t all for FDs.
    Back in the day of the downtube shifters, there wasn't any "on the fly" adjustment for either front or rear derailers and, yet, we survived.

    If the bike has a brazed on cable stop, there are way of fitting adjusters to the cable. You can use in-line adjusters which aren't as bad as they have been made out to be or Jagwire makes the Mickey Adjuster which fits in the braze-on cable stop. The "fancy" in-line adjusters that Kimmo mentions are another Jagwire product and aren't that expensive.
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    Is this what is called much ado about nothing?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Back in the day of the downtube shifters, there wasn't any "on the fly" adjustment for either front or rear derailers and, yet, we survived.
    Of course we did, but consider that the vast bulk of the D/T lever era was not indexed.

    My reference to on the fly adjustments doesn't apply to casual riders who can make sure the bike is right before starting. Had you read it in full, you'd have known that I specifically referenced the problem of racers who need to swap wheels mid race, and the mechanics who service them. For them the ability to adjust on the fly can be make or break for that day's race.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 03-10-14 at 11:00 AM.
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  17. #42
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Of course we did, but consider that the vast bulk of the D/T lever era was not indexed.
    You should consider that the vast bulk of friction downtube levers never needed any kind of on-the-fly adjustment for either front or rear derailers. The advent of indexed shifting required the ability to adjust the cable tension. And there were lots and lots of bikes that had indexed downtube shifters which didn't have any kind of adjustment capability at the shifter. Shimano indexed shifting was introduced in 1984 after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    My reference to on the fly adjustments doesn't apply to casual riders who can make sure the bike is right before starting. Had you read it in full, you'd have known that I specifically referenced the problem of racers who need to swap wheels mid race, and the mechanics who service them. For them the ability to adjust on the fly can be make or break for that day's race.
    I read your post in full and quoted it. No mention of racing in the post I quoted. On the other hand, on-the-fly adjustment is probably more useful for the casual rider who doesn't have a mechanic following them to provide support. We have to do our own adjusting.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    You should consider that the vast bulk of friction downtube levers never needed any kind of on-the-fly adjustment for either front or rear derailers. ....

    I read your post in full and quoted it. No mention of racing in the post I quoted.
    Yes, because the post you quoted followed a prior post where I first mentioned the need for on the fly adjusting in racing.

    And, there's nothing to consider. Of course, no adjusters were needed for friction shifting, since they all had on the fly trim adjusting via the fingertips. In an ideal world, there's no need to adjust trim while riding with index, since it's supposed to be dialed in, and is 99% of the time.

    Index continues to improve, but when Shimano first introduced STI they provided not only a barrel adjuster on the D/T stop, but even a small cam like lever for quick on the fly adjusting. So, while you don't feel it's important, racers do, and Shimano did at one time also.

    Then there's the FD, which has lost any trim fine tune as most bikes are shipped from the factory. This too, isn't insurmountable, and anyone who wants can always add an inline adjuster, but IMO the lack of an OEM adjuster shows an insensitivity to the mechanics who work on these bikes.

    I know that you thrive on "correcting" people's posts, but there was nothing here to correct.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 03-10-14 at 11:46 AM.
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  19. #44
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Yes, because the post you quoted followed a prior post where I first mentioned the need for on the fly adjusting in racing.
    Sorry but I don't read, memorize and take everything you say as gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    And, there's nothing to consider. Of course, no adjusters were needed for friction shifting, since they all had on the fly trim adjusting via the fingertips. In an ideal world, there's no need to adjust trim while riding with index, since it's supposed to be dialed in, and is 99% of the time.
    I know that no adjuster is needed for friction shifting. But you were the one making a big deal out of not having downtube bosses. They were only a convenient place to put adjusters. Today the adjuster is brazed on to the frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Index continues to improve, but when Shimano first introduced STI they provided not only a barrel adjuster on the D/T stop, but even a small cam like lever for quick on the fly adjusting. So, while you don't feel it's important, racers do, and Shimano did at one time also.
    Most of the bikes that I have looked at that still use cables have a barrel adjuster on both sides of the down tube. All the Treks that I've seen have them as do the Specializeds. The Salsa that I own has one and the Dean that I own has one. They are threaded right into the braze-on.

    Mountain bikes, as a rule, don't have them but mountain bikes have adjusters built into the shifter itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Then there's the FD, which has lost any trim fine tune as most bikes are shipped from the factory. This too, isn't insurmountable, and anyone who wants can always add an inline adjuster, but IMO the lack of an OEM adjuster shows an insensitivity to the mechanics who work on these bikes.
    Again, not on many of the bikes that I've seen.
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  20. #45
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    Let's end this, there's no real disagreement, except that you jumped on to a fine point without a sense of the context. In any case, whatever I say about the lack of adjusters on bicycles, would ONLY apply to those bikes that don't have them.

    If you haven't seen bikes sold OEM without built in adjusters, you haven't, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Let's end this, there's no real disagreement, except that you jumped on to a fine point without a sense of the context. In any case, whatever I say about the lack of adjusters on bicycles, would ONLY apply to those bikes that don't have them.

    If you haven't seen bikes sold OEM without built in adjusters, you haven't, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
    My 2009 Giant TCR Advanced frame has braze on cable guides on the downtube that DO NOT accommodate barrel adjusters, at least not most models of tbe adjusters. I was finally able to find some Ritchey adjusters that I have been able to jam into the guides. Considering the volume of road frames that Giant produces under its own label, that is really significant.
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  22. #47
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I know that you thrive on "correcting" people's posts, but there was nothing here to correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Sorry but I don't read, memorize and take everything you say as gospel.
    Come on guys, you're both really good at pissing. There doesn't have to be a winner...


  23. #48
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    ...In any case, whatever I say about the lack of adjusters on bicycles, would ONLY apply to those bikes that don't have them.

    If you haven't seen bikes sold OEM without built in adjusters, you haven't, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
    Of course the "lack of adjusters" would only apply to bicycles that don't have them. I agree that there are some road bikes out there that lack adjusters. But the majority of bikes I've seen have some kind of adjuster integrated into the frame at the head tube. That's certainly not "most new frames" as you've posited.
    Stuart Black
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  24. #49
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    Come on guys, you're both really good at pissing. There doesn't have to be a winner...
    Careful there, Kimmo. I hear a suspicious zipping sound from your direction too.
    Stuart Black
    Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

  25. #50
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    It's not a piss I'm about to have...

    Sweet dreams, fellers - nighty-night.

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