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Old 03-18-05, 05:03 PM   #1
OnWheels
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Tape Rewrap Necessary for Flight Deck?

I want to get a Shimano Flight Deck computer with a wired (not wireless) harness installed on my road bike, a Trek 1200C.

One mechanic at my LBS quoted me about $100 for the computer and wired harness, about $10 below list, plus $35 for the install.

When the parts arrived, a different mechanic said he would have to charge me list on the parts (not a biggie), the $35 install fee, plus an extra $35 for new tape and rewrapping, because the install would destroy the original tape. He said if the original mechanic forgot to quote the extra $35 to me, he had made a mistake.

First, my opinion: $35 seems way overpriced for new tape, especially since the LBS' web site lists tape for $21 max.

Second, a question: should it be necessary to wrap the handlebars with new tape to install a Flight Deck with a wired mount? Couldn't the wires be attached on top of the tape, or couldn't the tape be rewrapped without destroying it?

Thanks.
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Old 03-18-05, 05:40 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnWheels
First, my opinion: $35 seems way overpriced for new tape, especially since the LBS' web site lists tape for $21 max.
Yes. $35 seems way overpriced for new tape. My guess is they are tacking in the extra rewrapping fee labour charge. Here's what I personally would have done:
  1. The retaping is the most painful part (I'm horrible at bar wrapping) so I would have passed on having them do the installation of the FlightDeck itself and done it myself and then brought the bike back to have them rewrap the tape around the wires. Installation of the rest of the FlightDeck is really not difficult at all.
  2. As retaping the bar is par for the course when installing the FlightDeck, asked why that's not included in the original installation fee.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OnWheels
Second, a question: should it be necessary to wrap the handlebars with new tape to install a Flight Deck with a wired mount? Couldn't the wires be attached on top of the tape, or couldn't the tape be rewrapped without destroying it?
Well, technically you can leave the wires hanging outside the tape but I'm going to bet that will greatly shorten the life of those thin wires. More than likely, without them secured underneath the tap, you're going to snag them with a finger or something and rip them out of the interface connector. It's best to have them under the tape. As for reusing the tape, I think it depends. Some tape can be reused easily and if they're not particularly old or worn, I guess there's no reason not to reuse them. Some tape with the self-adhesive backing may be difficult to reuse. Most people treat bartape like underwear: once it gets pulled off, a fresh new one goes in place.

BTW, if you want a suggestion on how to keep the wires looking clean once they exit the tape, you can try something like this...



Remember to leave a little bit of a relief loop of wire underneath the mount to take into account slight movements of the cables that might otherwise stress them.
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Old 03-18-05, 07:05 PM   #3
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It is necessary to rewrap the bars to do this right. The wires are much too fragile to be grabbing them, and to put tape over your bar tape? No way!!

The first mechanic probably thought he could use the original tape over again. Sometimes you can, sometimes it breaks and you can't, no way to know until you try it. The first mechanic would have possibly had to say oops- I need to charge you for more tape, I broke the old tape.

The second mechanic has broken some tape before and does not want to have to re negotiate the price. Plus a new role of tape will look nicer and work better than reusing the old tape anyway. He wants to give you the right price the first time and keep you happy by not going over the quoted price later.
If the web site lists the tape as $21 that does not include tax? That would bring it up to closer to $24 ?? for you to actually own it.

The second guy sounds more experienced. I would want him to wrap my bars. I think you will be happier with the quality of the job.

If you use a headlight on your bike you need to bring it in for them to see it before wrapping the bars. The picture posted in this thread is a beautiful, nice, neat professional looking job. I can only see the picture, but it looks like you can not get a light on those bars.
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Old 03-18-05, 07:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manybikes
If you use a headlight on your bike you need to bring it in for them to see it before wrapping the bars. The picture posted in this thread is a beautiful, nice, neat professional looking job. I can only see the picture, but it looks like you can not get a light on those bars.
Yes, mounting a light was a bit of a chore. It can be done, believe it or not. The clamp for my JetLites will fit. When I do have to use a light, I need to be careful about positioning it so that the slot space in the clamp lines up with the brake cable so as not to bend the cable thus causing my brakes to drag. I found this out the hard way once.

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Old 03-18-05, 07:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khuon
Yes, mounting a light was a bit of a chore. It can be done, believe it or not. The clamp for my JetLites will fit. When I do have to use a light, I need to be careful about positioning it so that the slot space in the clamp lines up with the brake cable so as not to bend the cable thus causing my brakes to drag. I found this out the hard way once.
To get the big clamp for my Nightrider HID on I had to let the brake cable on one side exit the tape before the end. It works well, but does not look as nice as yours. Now I have a better light that would work without the cable space for the clamp.

Yours looks good with the light attached too.

Last edited by 2manybikes; 03-18-05 at 07:37 PM. Reason: incomplete
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Old 03-18-05, 07:41 PM   #6
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You should only pay for the computer install which should not exceed $20,and $35 for tape is outrageous in my opinion. Ive only been a member here for like a week and it amazes me how much ive already read about overpriced parts/service.Ive worked at three shops all together and never would charge that,these were also good shops. Its good that this forum exists because maybe we can actually help people out by telling them fair prices,teaching them to shop around and foremost being helping people to DIY. I dont want to seem cocky but wow.
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Old 03-18-05, 07:48 PM   #7
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Khuon, I shall now refer to you as the OCD plastic bike bento box boy. In a good way.
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Old 03-18-05, 07:59 PM   #8
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Thanks, guys, that was really helpful information.

I will tell the LBS to rewrap the tape if necessary, but not to charge more than the retail price of the tape, and the most expensive tape on their web site is $21.

Based on what you told me, $35 for the overall install is pretty pricey, and should cover rewrapping the tape.
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Old 03-18-05, 08:04 PM   #9
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first $20 to install a flightdeck is not bad. It takes forever. This is not like running a wire down fork. You have to pull the tape, at least partially pull the hoods, remove the contact covers, route the wiring to each control and one down the fork, tape the wires out of the way and retape the bars. Then you need to go set up the computer, on a flightdeck if you make an error you get to start over or if it has any issues you can spend twenty minutes troubleshooting because it refuses to indicate the correct cog position, you also have to figure the tooth combo of the cassette and chainrings and install that in the computer.

As for tape, depends on the tape, you can get profile for $10-12, or Cinelli for $13-15, but if you want the dual color Stella Azurra expect to pay $30 plus.

Certainly thre is some value to the opinion of a non professional that has a preconcieved notion of how much something is supposed to cost, but how does it compare to the professional that knows how long it takes, how much is involved and all the ancillary costs to just about any procedure. Some of us, professionals, post here day after day for the benefit of all even tho we get repeatedly **** on and called crooks by supposed "authorities" that have never been there, done the job day in and day out, or have any real idea of what a real experienced mechanic does every day.
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Old 03-18-05, 08:10 PM   #10
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One variable is that the cost of living varies from parts of the country to others, and from big cities to small towns. The cost of labor and parts will vary. Have you shopped other bike shops in your area? Where do you live?
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Old 03-18-05, 08:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatriate
Khuon, I shall now refer to you as the OCD plastic bike bento box boy. In a good way.
Hahahaha! I shall wear that title with pride.
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Old 03-18-05, 08:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Chuck
first $20 to install a flightdeck is not bad. It takes forever. This is not like running a wire down fork. You have to pull the tape, at least partially pull the hoods, remove the contact covers, route the wiring to each control and one down the fork, tape the wires out of the way and retape the bars. Then you need to go set up the computer, on a flightdeck if you make an error you get to start over or if it has any issues you can spend twenty minutes troubleshooting because it refuses to indicate the correct cog position, you also have to figure the tooth combo of the cassette and chainrings and install that in the computer.

As for tape, depends on the tape, you can get profile for $10-12, or Cinelli for $13-15, but if you want the dual color Stella Azurra expect to pay $30 plus.

Certainly thre is some value to the opinion of a non professional that has a preconcieved notion of how much something is supposed to cost, but how does it compare to the professional that knows how long it takes, how much is involved and all the ancillary costs to just about any procedure. Some of us, professionals, post here day after day for the benefit of all even tho we get repeatedly **** on and called crooks by supposed "authorities" that have never been there, done the job day in and day out, or have any real idea of what a real experienced mechanic does every day.



all true, just let me throw in.....

don't drop the tiny screws that hold the contact covers on!! If they don't make good contact bend the contacts out a little. Make sure the bike owner did not build a custom cog cassette !! Make sure the flat wire ribbon inside the sti levers is not kinked !!
Maybe the new flight deck owner does not know how it works and needs advice !!
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Old 03-18-05, 09:52 PM   #13
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Hi guys.

To answer your questions:

1. I live in the NYC metro area, so I am allowing for the fact that prices are going to be a little more expensive here. I just don't want to get ripped off for a tape job which isn't necessary, or if it is, paying double or triple the retail cost of the tape. I sure don't want any premium tape, just the equivalent of what came with the bike, which appears to be middle tier stuff.

2. Haven't priced the job at other LBS's yet, because I like this shop, and most of its mechanics-- just didn't entirely trust the expertise or honesty of the guy I dealt with last time. I bought the bike at that shop, and I appreciated that they took the time to fit it and tune it right for me, and they have made several adjustments for free since then. Getting the Flight Deck installed at another shop would make it difficult to go back there.

3. So for those reasons, I am okay with paying full retail on the Flight Deck and $35 on the install and $10 to $20 for new tape, if the original gets mangled.

Thanks again for all the great info, which will help me avoid getting ripped off, while maintaining the relationship with this mostly helpful and honest LBS.
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Old 03-18-05, 11:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Chuck
first $20 to install a flightdeck is not bad. It takes forever. This is not like running a wire down fork. You have to pull the tape, at least partially pull the hoods, remove the contact covers, route the wiring to each control and one down the fork, tape the wires out of the way and retape the bars. Then you need to go set up the computer, on a flightdeck if you make an error you get to start over or if it has any issues you can spend twenty minutes troubleshooting because it refuses to indicate the correct cog position, you also have to figure the tooth combo of the cassette and chainrings and install that in the computer.

As for tape, depends on the tape, you can get profile for $10-12, or Cinelli for $13-15, but if you want the dual color Stella Azurra expect to pay $30 plus.

Certainly thre is some value to the opinion of a non professional that has a preconcieved notion of how much something is supposed to cost, but how does it compare to the professional that knows how long it takes, how much is involved and all the ancillary costs to just about any procedure. Some of us, professionals, post here day after day for the benefit of all even tho we get repeatedly **** on and called crooks by supposed "authorities" that have never been there, done the job day in and day out, or have any real idea of what a real experienced mechanic does every day.
Who man, back off. Are talkin about me? I hav installed quite a few flight decks before. Ive had ups and downs with them. They are a pain but only because you have to enter everything in. Other then that they are still easy, just takes a little longer then a basic computer. Like I said ive never charged anything like that before. That is it, guess it depends on where you work.

Just dont say I dont know what im talkin about because that is wrong. I bet on an average day in my last shop I did more in 8 hours then you would in two days.
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Old 03-19-05, 12:27 AM   #15
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Go easy on him, Rev. He's only new.
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Old 03-19-05, 08:00 AM   #16
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Had he not made a flat statement, i.e. prefaced it with " At the shops I worked, at we charged $20" I would never had said a thing.

Flight deck install should include the labor for wrapping the bars, we charge $30 plus the cost of the tape.
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Old 03-19-05, 09:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liv_rong
Just dont say I dont know what im talkin about because that is wrong. I bet on an average day in my last shop I did more in 8 hours then you would in two days.
Now that's the kind of statement that makes me doubt you. What's your basis for saying you can wrench bikes twice as fast as the rev?

Ever watch "Monster Garage"? The guys who insist that they know what they are doing are the ones who always screw up. The guys who say they're still learning are the ones who really understand what it's all about.

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Old 03-19-05, 10:28 AM   #18
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The guys who insist that they know what they are doing are the ones who always screw up. The guys who say they're still learning are the ones who really understand what it's all about.
Good point. True in just about any part of life. Not just bike wrenching.

There's a lot to be learned in this forum from members who don't post very much.
If you ask something they are willing to help every single time.

FOR FREE !!
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Old 03-19-05, 02:32 PM   #19
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Now that's the kind of statement that makes me doubt you. What's your basis for saying you can wrench bikes twice as fast as the rev?

Ever watch "Monster Garage"? The guys who insist that they know what they are doing are the ones who always screw up. The guys who say they're still learning are the ones who really understand what it's all about.
I didnt mean twice as fast. I just meant higher volume shop, thats all. I felt like he was attaking me because he kept using the word professional and I thought it was dirrected at me. No big deal I hope.
Hope your not pissed rev.
Also I was refering to a price. I dont know how to do everything, nut I do know how to install a flight deck, its not rocket science. And I do admit the first time I did it wasnt the easiest either.
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Old 03-19-05, 02:42 PM   #20
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I didnt mean twice as fast. I just meant higher volume shop, thats all.
So you're saying the Rev sits on his butt all day while you're as busy as a one-handed paperhanger?
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Old 03-19-05, 02:45 PM   #21
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One thing to add for the original poster. If you just leave everything about the install to the shop at least read the instructions manual concerning programming the gears. As others have said, it is a little bit more involved than with other computers and the manuals are to some people not as forthcoming so it might take you a bit to understand how to do it. If you can't figure it out from the manual, you might want to have the LBS walk you through a programming procedure. Whenever you replace the batteries, you will need to reprogram the thing and you probably don't want to have to take it back to the shop each time to have it done.
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Old 03-19-05, 02:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatriate
So you're saying the Rev sits on his butt all day while you're as busy as a one-handed paperhanger?
No thats not it. Im sayin if there is more business prices will be lowere for service. Plus they are already spending a good chunk on the computer itself, so we would cut them a little break. If they bought a bike and wanted a flight deck it would be installed for free. I was not saying im better because i worked somewhere potentialy very busy compared to where rev works. Im just saying the prices are different everywhere.

Im not trying to talk sh it about anyone. I was originaly defending myself. There is no disrespect intended for rev or expatriot. You guys win. Im done typing back and forth, it started as flight decks not who is better or who knows more or who is more proffesional.
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Old 03-19-05, 04:18 PM   #23
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Hey, the Rev may sit on his butt all day for all I know, but he knows a heck of a lot about bikes.
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Old 03-19-05, 06:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
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One thing to add for the original poster. If you just leave everything about the install to the shop at least read the instructions manual concerning programming the gears. As others have said, it is a little bit more involved than with other computers and the manuals are to some people not as forthcoming so it might take you a bit to understand how to do it. If you can't figure it out from the manual, you might want to have the LBS walk you through a programming procedure. Whenever you replace the batteries, you will need to reprogram the thing and you probably don't want to have to take it back to the shop each time to have it done.
The best part is that the Shimano manual was obviously written by somebody for whom English wasn't their first language. It's actually a little humorous once you figure everything out.
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Old 03-19-05, 06:19 PM   #25
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The best part is that the Shimano manual was obviously written by somebody for whom English wasn't their first language. It's actually a little humorous once you figure everything out.
Yep. And you might enjoy http://www.engrish.com/
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