Spoke wear on Atom hub
1 Attachment(s)
I'm overhauling an old Atom hub off my Motobecane. The cups and cones are great but the flanges have sizeable spoke grooves. Should I be concerned? It's my first wheel build and I'd like to use the original hubs.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368653 |
It's just a front wheel and 36 holes, so I would not worry too much about it. It's not always a simple matter to figure out how to lace so that the spokes go the same way, and if the rim is designed differently than the original it's not possible on both flanges.
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That's not wear. It's par for the course distortion of the soft shell material caused by the elbow. It happens almost immediately when the wheel is built and tightened, then might slowly settle deeper for a while before stabilizing. Once fully settled, it stays there forever.
Lace following the same pattern so the spokes sit the same way and you'll be fine. You could rebuild 10 or more times and nothing will change. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 16575896)
You could rebuild 10 or more times and nothing will change.
It's the same quality/strength/thickness material from the hole, all the way to the outside, so there is nothing to stop that material from stretching even further. I wouldn't build another wheel based on an old hub, but it's just me. It doesn't mean it can't be done though. |
@FBinNY Thanks. That's good to know. The picture is of the non-drive side rear hub. The front hub is a high flange beauty. I hope the bottom bracket in as good of shape. I'm using the same rim (Rigida). The spokes were badly corroded.
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Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16575954)
Since the holes are bigger/stretched after first built, does it make sense that the same process will happen after each wheel build?
It's the same quality/strength/thickness material from the hole, all the way to the outside, so there is nothing to stop that material from stretching even further. I wouldn't build another wheel based on an old hub, but it's just me. It doesn't mean it can't be done though. So while you wouldn't rebuild, tens of thousands of experienced builders all over the world wouldn't give it a second thought. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 16575964)
The material doesn't stretch. It distorts, and actually compresses slightly. Once it's settled in it matches the elbow, so the concentrated stress that drives the process is eliminated.
So while you wouldn't rebuild, tens of thousands of experienced builders all over the world wouldn't give it a second thought. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 16575964)
tens of thousands of experienced builders all over the world wouldn't give it a second thought.
I will try to post pic of my older hub after 2 builds...Holes are as round as egg. Well, I have a question...If money were no issue, would wheel builder use old hub instead of the new one? I'm not trying to be an azz, but this: "The material doesn't stretch. It distorts, and actually compresses slightly" yells stretching lol Very handy definition of distortion says : Distortion (or warping) is the alteration of the original shape (or other characteristic) of something, such as an object, image, sound or waveform. Distortion is usually unwanted, and so engineers strive to eliminate distortion, or minimize it. |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576049)
. . . Distortion is usually unwanted, and so engineers strive to eliminate distortion, or minimize it.
ALL structures and materials distort under ANY load, no matter how small. |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576049)
I tried to find experienced/good wheel builder in my area...not much luck reading reviews and talking to others. Why some of these tens of thousands experienced ones left my state? Is it weather? Is it me? ;-) Don't answer. I bet you didn't mean that high of a number.
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576049)
Well, I have a question...If money were no issue, would wheel builder use old hub instead of the new one?
In the typical mom and pop bike shop years ago, mom was the wheelbuilder, and where there were wheelbuilding contests at trade shows women took the prizes.
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576049)
I'm not trying to be an azz, but this: "The material doesn't stretch. It distorts, and actually compresses slightly" yells stretching lol Very handy definition of distortion says : Distortion (or warping) is the alteration of the original shape (or other characteristic) of something, such as an object, image, sound or waveform. Distortion is usually unwanted, and so engineers strive to eliminate distortion, or minimize it.
If this were a continuous process as you seem to believe, we'd see tons of old hubs where the hole elongated until it finally tore through. But we don't because after the initial settle the hub stays there. If the same spoke doesn't eventually pull through, why would you imagine that the replacement at the same tension would? It doesn't. |
Itsnot wear, just a result of the spoke bedding into the softer aluminum hub flange
it is unavoidable when you lace up a new rim the new spokes should lay in the same direction on that impression |
5 Attachment(s)
That is what I'm worry about while using same hub over and over again http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-009/000.html
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368668http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368669http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368670http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368671http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368672 |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576228)
That is what I'm worry about while using same hub over and over again http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-009/000.html
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368668http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368669http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368670http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368671http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=368672 |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576228)
That is what I'm worry about while using same hub over and over again
Also consider that the flange is equally likely to fail on the original build than on some later one, since the question isn't the number of builds, but the number of tension change cycles that lead to fatigue. Lastly take a look at the extent of damage to that broken flange, probably including some corrosive damage where the spoke lays along the flange, and compare to the very clean appearance of the OP's hub. That's why experienced builders wouldn't blink at rebuilding. However, I'm nit trying to convince you. Instead, save those hubs you're afraid to rebuild and send them to me. |
[QUOTE=lopek77;16576228]That is what I'm worry about while using same hub over and over again http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-009/000.htmlQUOTE]
More of your old avatar. According to your link it was fatigue failure, not re-use. |
[QUOTE=AnkleWork;16576244]
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576228)
That is what I'm worry about while using same hub over and over again http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-009/000.htmlQUOTE]
More of your old avatar. According to your link it was fatigue failure, not re-use. |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576260)
. . . I'm sorry, but material fatigue is directly connected to using/reusing the product. There is no fatigue if you not using it...
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16575954)
Since the holes are bigger/stretched after first built, does it make sense that the same process will happen after each wheel build?
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork
(Post 16576281)
Because you say so? A friendly suggestion: you might trouble yourself to learn the actual meaning of "material fatigue" and some of the other words you use.
As has been explained to you, that's not fatigue. While you change your tune, I'll stand on your words. Educate yourself first and then you may catch a glimpse of a smile on my face. It's a pretty sight...I swear EDIT: to make it easier for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material) |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576260)
Hahahahhaaa :roflmao2:, I'm sorry, but material fatigue is directly connected to using/reusing the product. There is no fatigue if you not using it. :roflmao2: Thanks for both of your attacks, I'm sorry - comments. You clearly didn't understand the meaning of my old avatar...
Anyway, you posted 5 photos of flange failure. Only the first, which was of a very old well worn hub, was (possibly) a fatigue failure. The others were all clean structural failures from excess radial load resulting from a combination of excess tension and/or radial or near radial spoke angle. Fatigue is easy to rule out because of the overall condition of the hub, and the lack of evidence of progressive failure over time. But keep it up, and you'll be sure to know as much in 10 years as you do now. |
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576312)
I'm sorry, but I couldn't care less if you like it or not, or if you approve or not whatever I said so far.
Educate yourself first and then you may catch a glimpse of a smile on my face. It's a pretty sight...I swear EDIT: to make it easier for you Fatigue (material) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
Not sure why u assuming I know everything. Never said that, and as a matter of fact I said many times that I have a lot to learn.
Sheldon Brown was and still is a Cycling God to many...was he wrong? Yes...and he was wrong many, many times. He also misinformed people with some of his theories. So don't tell me I have to listen to someone no matter what, or because that person is respected by others. Hitler was also respected guy by millions of people... I have my own opinions like everybody else, and if I don't agree with one - I will comment on it. You guys need to chill out and take it less seriously. You not a boss here or the worlds best mechanic out there...well...maybe you are. Anyway, we are or at least should be treated equally here, otherwise what is the point of having forum? Have a good night...My fingers got very tired lol |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 16576322)
. . . Anyway, you posted 5 photos of flange failure. Only the first, which was of a very old well worn hub, was (possibly) a fatigue failure. The others were all clean structural failures from excess radial load resulting from a combination of excess tension and/or radial or near radial spoke angle. Fatigue is easy to rule out because of the overall condition of the hub, and the lack of evidence of progressive failure over time. . .
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16575954)
Since the holes are bigger/stretched after first built, does it make sense that the same process will happen after each wheel build?
It's the same quality/strength/thickness material from the hole, all the way to the outside, so there is nothing to stop that material from stretching even further. |
Knock knock....who's there? Our old, confused friend AnkleWork.
Go to sleep and forget about this thread, or it may confuse you even more. Or you can stay up and try to get your comment counter to the next round number...is it what you are trying to do? |
I rebuild wheels on different used hubs all the time. I agree with everything that FB and others supporting his view have said. I also never radially lace unless the hub is designed specifically to handle that type of load and a lot of old hubs aren't designed with radially spoking in mind.
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Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16575954)
Since the holes are bigger/stretched after first built, does it make sense that the same process will happen after each wheel build?
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16575954)
It's the same quality/strength/thickness material from the hole, all the way to the outside, so there is nothing to stop that material from stretching even further.
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16575954)
I wouldn't build another wheel based on an old hub, but it's just me.
Originally Posted by lopek77
(Post 16576228)
That is what (I) worry about while using same hub over and over again
The OP has a 36 hole hub that is going to be rebuilt with conventional lacing, most likely 3 cross. Even if he were to lace the spokes in a different direction the likelihood of a problem is next to nil. In over 20 years of working on bikes and as a service manager, counting on one hand would cover the amount of such failures I saw, and I don't recall a single one on a conventionally laced 36 hole hub. It is not a reflection on you personally, but merely a fact that both your theoretical grounding and your empirical background are lacking. |
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