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Old 03-28-14, 05:15 PM   #1
Tpcorr
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Is BB30 fixed?

With the advent of using blue locktite in assembling the bottom bracket, is the creaking and clicking fixed? When your LBS receives a bike from Cannondale, is the crankset already installed, or does the shop install it?

Tom
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Old 04-04-14, 07:54 PM   #2
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I purchased a BB30 equipped Cannondale a few months ago and no, the problem is not fixed.... Alas.
And the dealers are of no help; nor is Cannondale: they just say they might send some loctite to the dealership if need be. Seems like under Dorel, Cannondale has become a fly-by-night outfit.
And my and countless others' new bikes are defective. Thanks Cannondale!
Where are the class actions lawyers when you need them? Why no recall?

Recall BB30 that's the watchword! Until then, cross your fingers before every ride if you are riding a with a bb30...

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Old 04-04-14, 08:08 PM   #3
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...I thought the latest recommendation was to use one of the more permanent Loctite formulations, that are used as bedding compounds ?
You can't expect to replace your BB assembly ever again, but at least you get to ride the bike through the lifetime of one of them.

One also hears stories of BB 30 creaking issues that are solved with teflon tape, but I've not had personal experience.
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Old 04-05-14, 07:58 AM   #4
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And then you hear all these deal-envious, xenophobic, anti-Chinondale bigots, frothing at the mouth with rage against Chinese frame sellers. With all their groundless speculation that, "...Chinese frame makers never test their frames to the standards of Western-branded bike companies...". HOOIE!

The haters always conveniently forget the "double-standard" that applies when widely publicized failures such as Cannondale's (and tons of other Western name-brands) constantly crop up. We hear way more often about name brand failures than we hear about the so called "untested" Chreks or Chinervelos.

My answer the question posed in this thread's title is a resounding "Yes. Evidently it's been fixed by the Chinese frame factories". I bought an open-mold frame with BB30 through aliexpress about 18 months ago. I'd never built a bike before in my life. But it took me mere minutes to install one of these SRAM BB30s on my Chinese open-mold frame...



...now 18 months and several thousand miles later, it runs as smoothly, as quietly and as solidly as it ran the day I installed it. The only thing I applied during installation was grease. I'd never even heard of Loctite; much less ever had to use it on my Chinese BB30 frame.

So my answer to "Is BB30 fixed?" is, "Yeah! It is. Just as long as you buy your frame from the right maker".

The OP would be better off getting one of these babies with the BB68 option ('cause like the seller says, "...BB30 needs more time than BB68...")
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Old 04-05-14, 08:17 AM   #5
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Even with the proper Loctite formulation I know of no reason that a BB couldn't be replaced using the proper tools, of course.

Yes the problem is fixed if the BB is properly installed. That your LBS didn't do that and Cannondale appears clueless doesn't change anything.
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Old 04-05-14, 09:15 AM   #6
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In my experience (N=1), a BB30 crankset installed in a BB30 bottom bracket doesn't creak. The problems occur when using adapters to make non-BB30 cranksets work.
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Old 04-05-14, 09:48 AM   #7
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Even with the proper Loctite formulation I know of no reason that a BB couldn't be replaced using the proper tools, of course.

Yes the problem is fixed if the BB is properly installed. That your LBS didn't do that and Cannondale appears clueless doesn't change anything.
...if you're talking to me, you don't understand the nature of Loctite bedding compounds........or what "proper" means. Just sayin'.
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Old 04-05-14, 11:47 AM   #8
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...I thought the latest recommendation was to use one of the more permanent Loctite formulations, that are used as bedding compounds ?
You can't expect to replace your BB assembly ever again, but at least you get to ride the bike through the lifetime of one of them.

One also hears stories of BB 30 creaking issues that are solved with teflon tape, but I've not had personal experience.
bb30 bearings set with loctite 609 retaining compound are easily removed with standard tools
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Old 04-05-14, 02:00 PM   #9
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...if you're talking to me, you don't understand the nature of Loctite bedding compounds........or what "proper" means. Just sayin'.
Yes, in fact I was addressing you. Sorry that I did not use the "Reply with Quote" to make it clear. As reptilezs says, I believe you are mistaken. Puller type tools will remove an adhesive bedded BB30 bottom bracket. I have also heard of punches used successfully to remove BB30 bearings.
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Old 04-05-14, 11:05 PM   #10
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"Is BB30 fixed?" This IMO, so take it for what's it's worth. First, there was nothing to fix as a design and standard goes, but the close tolerances required for long life are not able to be met in this industry.

BB30 really has no advantage a as a bottom bracket type other than light weight (on the user level) and simplification at the mfr. level. The mfr. can save on assembly time, and benefit from fewer parts.

BTW- the lighter weight part is a result of the aluminum spindle, which must be larger (30 vs. 24mm) to maintain strength and stiffness. Then there's the BB itself, which can save a few grams, but not enough to matter except to the weight wienies (which includes me.) That being said... I think it's a great system, but it has it's drawbacks in the bike industry.

Cannondale set the standard, but they seem to be one of the worst in following (their own) recommendations and tolerances and seem to have the most problems.

Consider that the spindle is larger and therefor requires a bearing with a larger id, and to fit the bearing od within the shell the balls are smaller and the material thickness of the race is thin. Therein lies part of the problem. The fit tolerance must be exact. On production frames it's normally too "tight" and there's no clearance for the lube, and it runs dry. So... the life is short. A dry bearing squeaks. FWIW- interference fit tolerance between the spindle and inner race, and the shell and out race should be no more than .0005".

No bike shop can measure to that degree of accuracy, nor do they have the means to machine to that tolerance, or to the degree or "roundness" required. No Park tool will get you there.

Another issue is "bearing distance." Maybe best described as the distance between the bearing seats in the shell. If these ain't spot on side loading of the bearing can occur. Again, nost bike shops are not equipped to deal with this, let alone measure. Then there's the install procedure.

Even Park tools site has it wrong. The install procedure has to insure that no side-loading of the bearing is present. If the tolerances are
"perfect" you can get by with "common" procedures. OTH, if the "slip-fit" is not right... setting the bearing into the frame and driving the spindle through, will side load the bearings every time.

I set the DS bearing first, and pull the crank in supporting the inner race. Then push the ND bearing in (supporting both inner and out races) pulling in from the outside of the DS spindle. This eliminates any side loads.

They can be made to work, and work well, and live forever- at least as long as any other bb bearing system.

Creaks? Who knows. Could be a tolerance issue, or a bearing issue. I will say (as someone eluded to) "adaptors have a tendency to creak." Of course. There's more parts involved so clearances must be right for the extra parts as well. My question is- if you have a BB30 frame, why adapt a different crank?

PF30 guys don't seem to have the same issues. PF30 and BB30 are the same crank. PF30 uses a "plastic" adapter" in the frame. This seems to more tolerant of "lousy" tolerances.

That's my take. I've had good success with curing BB30 problems for the racer types. Relatively easy compared to prepping race motors where there's five bearing saddles that must align and be clearanced to live at 10,000rpm, whereas a bike crank might spin at 120?
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Old 04-06-14, 07:06 AM   #11
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Give it up folks, for [MENTION=209201]reddog3[/MENTION] .

Thanks, man.
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Old 04-06-14, 07:18 AM   #12
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I set the DS bearing first, and pull the crank in supporting the inner race. Then push the ND bearing in (supporting both inner and out races) pulling in from the outside of the DS spindle. This eliminates any side loads.
Wut? Please provide more details about how this is done. What does it mean to "support" a race while installing a bearing? What does it mean to pull "in from the outside of the DS spindle" when there is the DS bearing in place? What are the physical manipulations involved in that process? Doesn't tightening of the two sides of the crank together and against the bearings provide opportunity for side loads. I am not a mechanical engineer so please be gentle. Not to be critical, I mean this constructively, but it all sounds like gibberish to me.
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Old 04-06-14, 07:45 AM   #13
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My experience is different. I have a 2006 Cannondale with the original BB30 and 20,000 miles on it. No squeaks or clicks. Smooth and tight as the day it was made. Granted, I try not to ride in the rain, but I don't think I take undue care with it overall. I just don't get the "I hate Cannondale and their Asian masters" thing.
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Old 04-06-14, 08:42 AM   #14
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bb30 bearings set with loctite 609 retaining compound are easily removed with standard tools
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Yes, in fact I was addressing you. Sorry that I did not use the "Reply with Quote" to make it clear. As reptilezs says, I believe you are mistaken. Puller type tools will remove an adhesive bedded BB30 bottom bracket. I have also heard of punches used successfully to remove BB30 bearings.
http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_d...hure_FINAL.pdf

All of my practical experience with these has been in automotive applications, so I'll take your word for it. And they were probably not done with 609.
Given that experience, I know that disassembly of the parts in question in my cases used torch heat that would be inadvisable on a Cannondale BB.

But it is good to know that this option is a workable one, because I had pretty much written it off as impractical.

I don't think that I can hit a punch hard enough to overcome the sheer strength listed for 609, but a screw threaded puller ought to do that.

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Old 04-07-14, 12:38 AM   #15
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Wut? Please provide more details about how this is done. What does it mean to "support" a race while installing a bearing? What does it mean to pull "in from the outside of the DS spindle" when there is the DS bearing in place? What are the physical manipulations involved in that process? Doesn't tightening of the two sides of the crank together and against the bearings provide opportunity for side loads. I am not a mechanical engineer so please be gentle. Not to be critical, I mean this constructively, but it all sounds like gibberish to me.
I understand the "gibberish" part- no offense taken. I'm not an ME either, therefore might have a problem being understood. It's a bit difficult to explain in text , and maybe even harder to understand. Let's try a different approach.

If you follow "instructions" and seat both bearings into the shell... all is well until you push the spindle into the bearings. Since the spindle is an interference fit in the inner race, the bearings will be sideloaded (for lack of a better term) whether you push, or pull the spindle through.

If you support the inner race with your puller it pulls into the inner race only. If you follow "directions" you push, or pull the spindle in, but the bearing is only supported on the outer race in the shell. All the stress is on the balls. Once in place following "directions" there's no good way for correction to center the bearing. Same way for installation of the NDS. If you followed "directions" the NDS bearing would already be in place. Driving the spindle in would stress bearings on both sides.

I push the NDS bearing in after the crank spindle is set in the DS. Here's a part that may be tough to understand (as per your question.) I support both races because there's an interference fit on both the inner and outer races. To use one race or the other to seat the bearing would side- load the balls. As mentioned, the puller is supported on the outside of the DS spindle. Not doing so would sideload the DS bearing so one could pull in the other side. Doing do allows the DS bearing to float free, rather than using the shell to support the puller. Still clear as mud?

Problem is, well not really, you have to fashion your own puller set. If you do enough BB30/PF30 work, and you want them to run free, it's no biggee- about an hours worth of lathe time.
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Old 04-07-14, 04:34 PM   #16
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The only way to fix BB30 is to throw away your frame and buy one with a standard English threaded BB. Any design that takes a simple threaded interface and replaces it with a press fit is a step in the wrong direction IMO. Creaking and requiring Loctite are the results.
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Old 04-07-14, 04:45 PM   #17
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I understand the "gibberish" part- no offense taken. I'm not an ME either, therefore might have a problem being understood. It's a bit difficult to explain in text , and maybe even harder to understand. Let's try a different approach.

If you follow "instructions" and seat both bearings into the shell... all is well until you push the spindle into the bearings. Since the spindle is an interference fit in the inner race, the bearings will be sideloaded (for lack of a better term) whether you push, or pull the spindle through.

If you support the inner race with your puller it pulls into the inner race only. If you follow "directions" you push, or pull the spindle in, but the bearing is only supported on the outer race in the shell. All the stress is on the balls. Once in place following "directions" there's no good way for correction to center the bearing. Same way for installation of the NDS. If you followed "directions" the NDS bearing would already be in place. Driving the spindle in would stress bearings on both sides.

I push the NDS bearing in after the crank spindle is set in the DS. Here's a part that may be tough to understand (as per your question.) I support both races because there's an interference fit on both the inner and outer races. To use one race or the other to seat the bearing would side- load the balls. As mentioned, the puller is supported on the outside of the DS spindle. Not doing so would sideload the DS bearing so one could pull in the other side. Doing do allows the DS bearing to float free, rather than using the shell to support the puller. Still clear as mud?

Problem is, well not really, you have to fashion your own puller set. If you do enough BB30/PF30 work, and you want them to run free, it's no biggee- about an hours worth of lathe time.
Thanks. I understand your principles. I just can't picture the manipulations past seating the first bearing set and starting to push the spindle through. No biggie. It is unlikely I will ever own a press fit BB.

One more question though. Why is it different with regard to side loading pushing the spindle through a bearing press fit into a BB shell and one pressed into a threaded in cup? Isn't the side stress the same?
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Old 04-08-14, 07:44 PM   #18
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http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_d...hure_FINAL.pdf

All of my practical experience with these has been in automotive applications, so I'll take your word for it. And they were probably not done with 609.
Given that experience, I know that disassembly of the parts in question in my cases used torch heat that would be inadvisable on a Cannondale BB.

But it is good to know that this option is a workable one, because I had pretty much written it off as impractical.

I don't think that I can hit a punch hard enough to overcome the sheer strength listed for 609, but a screw threaded puller ought to do that.
i have done this plenty of times. a punch and a standard 16-20 oz ball peen works
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Old 04-08-14, 08:17 PM   #19
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...how are you lucky enough to work on so many Cannondales ?
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Old 04-08-14, 09:51 PM   #20
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...how are you lucky enough to work on so many Cannondales ?
cannondale is not the only frame that uses bb30. i work at mainly a high end roadie shop but we do everything.
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Old 04-09-14, 12:36 AM   #21
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...I'm really just trying to get a feel for what's a reasonable repair and how often you have to redo them.

Since the one guy who's responded so far that he thinks, with special tools and techniques that are unavailable to mere mortals,
he can make it work, I'm pretty dubious on my own chances, even though I thought with a press I could probably do so.

I'm in a trickle down environment...a bike co-op. Believe it or not, eventually some of the better road stuff eventually gets given
to non-profits like us for the tax write off versus PIA of selling it. And people sometimes (not often in the highest end stuff) come
in and expect me to know how to fix it.

Also, why a punch, not a drift ? Or is that what we're talking about ? Can you make it work without the bedding ?
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Old 04-09-14, 06:42 AM   #22
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...I'm really just trying to get a feel for what's a reasonable repair and how often you have to redo them.

Since the one guy who's responded so far that he thinks, with special tools and techniques that are unavailable to mere mortals,
he can make it work, I'm pretty dubious on my own chances, even though I thought with a press I could probably do so.

I'm in a trickle down environment...a bike co-op. Believe it or not, eventually some of the better road stuff eventually gets given
to non-profits like us for the tax write off versus PIA of selling it. And people sometimes (not often in the highest end stuff) come
in and expect me to know how to fix it.

Also, why a punch, not a drift ? Or is that what we're talking about ? Can you make it work without the bedding ?
If you look up the definitions, you will see that punches and drifts are often confused. It is what you are using it for as much as anything else that determines what to call it. You need a punch because you will be punching out the bearing. A drift is a tool that is used to line up holes in two or more parts for assembly. Think of it this way: a drift keeps part from drifting out of place. Calling a punch a drift or using a drift to punch something is a common error.

Some people are successful withot the bedding, but others see no reason to take the chance. According to knowledgable folks like Campag4life bedding is the sure fire fix.
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Old 04-09-14, 08:18 AM   #23
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.......thank you. I actually do know the difference. Perhaps I should have said, "Are we talking about taking a large tapered drift
and inserting it through the hole of the bearing assembly , then whacking it with the hammer to attempt to apply the force more circumferentially ?

Or are we talking about selecting the appropriate sized pin punch and applying the blunt force on one spot where the bearing housing meets the BB shell. ?"

Is that clearer ?

Last edited by 3alarmer; 04-09-14 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 04-09-14, 07:11 PM   #24
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.......thank you. I actually do know the difference. Perhaps I should have said, "Are we talking about taking a large tapered drift
and inserting it through the hole of the bearing assembly , then whacking it with the hammer to attempt to apply the force more circumferentially ?

Or are we talking about selecting the appropriate sized pin punch and applying the blunt force on one spot where the bearing housing meets the BB shell. ?"

Is that clearer ?
pin punch or this park tool which straddles the inner race of the bearing Park Tool Co. BBT-30.3 : Bottom Bracket Tool Set for BB30 and PF30 : Bottom Bracket loctite products came into the bb30 scene from creaking. frame manufacturers were not holding tolerance
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Old 04-09-14, 10:52 PM   #25
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...thank you.
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