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  1. #51
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I don't debate chain lubes, because I have an obvious bias, and don't want to appear as justifying my product through forum debate. In any case I'm a believer in the concept that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and based on third party reviews, wet lubes as a class seem to be preferred by most users for all kinds of conditions. I realize that they must all be ignorant of the fact that liquids can't stay in chains, and we're all lucky to have you to enlighten us on that point.

    I find it a bit ironic that I seem to be among the least passionate debater about chain lubes, and have never argued that there's only one intelligent way to lubricate a chain.

    As for the quote, I long ago chose to use it as part of my signature because I think it makes a valid point. If you feel it's inappropriate, or have some special insight into the meaning you might let me know.
    I think it means that you area know-it-all...not that there is anything wrong with that.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  2. #52
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    I am well aware that cog size plays a most significant role in drivetrain efficiency as does a perfectly tensioned chain... as for lube you can test this stuff in a lab but out in the real world you have to deal with environmental factors.

    A good rule for lube is to use dry lube where it stays very dry and a wet lube where you are exposed to more moisture which usually carries a lot of grit, proper oiling will keep that grit out and help protect the metal from corrosion.

    Going back to those bikes with full chain cases... you don't have to oil those chains with any regularity and the new chain I thew on my wife's bike had the factory lube on it and will probably last until the cog and chainwheel wear out.
    I have had the opposite experience. I don't like wax lubes at all. Plus, with wet lubes, I can quickly eliminate squeaks and creaks on the trail. Not the best application, but it has worked for me until I get home and can properly fix it.

    Yeah, factory lubes are the best IME.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  3. #53
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Subtle. First you imply that because the press release is old, it can be ignored and then you imply that those eggheads at some fancy college where they only got book larnin' should'a knowd all this stuff to begin with 'cause it was knowd a hunert years ago.

    I've read the study. You could run on down to you local liberry and get a copy to read yourself. People couldn't have known what these guys found a hundred years ago because they didn't have the instrumentation to measure what was measured 100 years ago. The study used sophisticated instrumentation to measure heat flows that aren't simple to measure because the magnitude of those flows are extremely small.

    They did, by the way, "visit the library". The paper that they published is well documented and peer reviewed. For the uninformed, peer review is where papers are subjected to scrutiny by several learned people in the field of study before the paper is published. If Johns Hopkins is anything like other research facilities, it was probably peer reviewed by people at Johns Hopkins before it was submitted to external peer review prior to publication. And, just in case you think that peer review is a rubber stamp, it is not. Having been through the process many times, peers take their job seriously. The process is brutal and, if something were attempted to be published that has been "known for 100 years", they would have brought it up...in the harshest possible terms. It's not accepted to "rediscover" something.

    Now if you don't agree with the Johns Hopkins study, you are free to refute it. If you can find a paper from 100 years ago that states the same information, you can write and publish your own study.



    Oh, I understand your intent. It's just not Pope's intent.
    I find that personal experience trumps "science" almost 50% of the time.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  4. #54
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    I'll agree that oil protects against corrosion. That's the role they play in wet conditions. It interferes with the electrochemical reactions that cause oxidation of iron when water is present. Wax lubricants aren't as effective because the wax doesn't flow like oil does. Oil doesn't protect when water is present because it "stays put" but because it can move.

    But wet conditions don't carry more grit than dry conditions. Water makes particles of all size stick together better. In dry conditions, the particles can get airborne easier. The smaller the particle, which are the ones more likely to fit into the gaps of a chain, the more likely they are to get into the air and thrown onto the chain. Basically, you don't get dust storms in the rain.
    Since oil flows, it cleans better. That is the key in dry conditions...a proper dooshing at least once a week.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Subtle. First you imply that because the press release is old, it can be ignored and then you imply that those eggheads at some fancy college where they only got book larnin' should'a knowd all this stuff to begin with 'cause it was knowd a hunert years ago..
    I don't see where I implied anything about the study being ignored because it was done 15 years ago (not old by my standards). But yes, they didn't discover as much as confirm prior knowledge. As a side note, you'll find that far from disagreeing with them, I consistently recommend the use of larger sprockets (as I've done long before the study), so there's no disagreement.

    But it's easy to use the study to jump from solid ground into quickstand if you're not careful. They studied the efficiency or power loss in chain drives under lab conditions, using new chains. That's very different than studying how to maximize chain life in the real world. Nor did they study the effects of wear on efficiency.

    So, while the study was interesting, it wasn't relevant to the major concern of most riders, which is getting the most bang for their buck out of their hardware. Lubrication comes at a cost in efficiency because lubricants introduce an added source of drag. This is especially true with chains because of the large flat areas between the plates which have virtually zero friction when running aligned and dry, but act like wet clutches when oiled. However lubrication's purpose on chains isn't to improve new efficiency, it's to improve chain life. Standard practice in the machinery world, even for fully enclosed chains is to have the chain continuously and positively oiled. The reason is that chain life is important and warrants some loss in initial efficiency.

    So, for those who feel that lubes serve only to keep the elements from getting into your chains, I suggest an experiment you can do at home. Take a new chain, wash it in napatha, doing multiple rinses, to ensure it's clean and dry inside. Mount it on your bike, and do some hard training on a home trainer (no water or dirt) and pound some serious hard miles. Remove the chain and set aside, and repeat with a lubed chain (your choice). Ride the same distance, then compare chains, and draw your own conclusions.

    As I say time and again, there are many ways to lubricate a chain, so pick whatever you prefer and go with it. If you want minimum power loss (for a while) run your chain dry.

    As far as this thread is concerned, let's call it a case of reasonable people disagreeing, and end it there. Feel free to continue debating, but I have nothing more to add, and readers of this thread are free to draw their own conclusions.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 04-03-14 at 11:11 AM.
    FB
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    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

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  6. #56
    Member melloveloyellow's Avatar
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    Chain lube threads always trend to vitriol (no, it's not a chain lube). I guess there are three subjects one should avoid: religion, politics, and chain lube.

    ...and yet another vote for bar & chain oil here. It's cheap!

  7. #57
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melloveloyellow View Post
    Chain lube threads always trend to vitriol (no, it's not a chain lube). I guess there are three subjects one should avoid: religion, politics, and chain lube.

    ...and yet another vote for bar & chain oil here. It's cheap!
    Aaaahahaha!

    The other thing I like about DT stuff is that it won't stain, and it's easily removed with a little dirt.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  8. #58
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Did we figure out what kind of oil works best in a high mileage Fiero yet ?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    Did we figure out what kind of oil works best in a high mileage Fiero yet ?
    No, but around here, it's common practice to use a variety of additives to offset the effects of wear and higher clearances such as additional blowby at the rings, or weepage at the journals. Things like Marvel Mystery oil were and are popular with owners of older cars for these reasons.

    OTOH, if it's not burning oil, and compression remains good, stick with what got you there. My Miata has 250k miles on it and loses 1 pint in 3,000 miles, using Castrol 10x50, but that's probably too heavy for your winters.
    FB
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    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  10. #60
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    No, but around here, it's common practice to use a variety of additives to offset the effects of wear and higher clearances such as additional blowby at the rings, or weepage at the journals. Things like Marvel Mystery oil were and are popular with owners of older cars for these reasons.

    OTOH, if it's not burning oil, and compression remains good, stick with what got you there. My Miata has 250k miles on it and loses 1 pint in 3,000 miles, using Castrol 10x50, but that's probably too heavy for your winters.
    My Nissan Sentra has 256,000 km on it and since I re-torqued the weeping valve cover it does not lose any oil between changes.

    10w30 semi synthetic is what I run, the car will start at -35C without being plugged in.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    My Nissan Sentra has 256,000 km on it and since I re-torqued the weeping valve cover it does not lose any oil between changes.

    10w30 semi synthetic is what I run, the car will start at -35C without being plugged in.
    Got me beat.
    FB
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    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  12. #62
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Got me beat.
    256k here is only 161,000 miles... just enough to break in a Sentra.

    The Miata is a cooler car.


  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    Miata is a cooler car.

    Yes, but the engine runs very hot.
    FB
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    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  14. #64
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Yes, but the engine runs very hot.
    The fan in my Sentra failed in the fall of 2012 and I ran it well into the spring of 2013 before I got around to replacing it... it never overheated and only got a little warmer when I was stuck on the freeway in 70 degree weather.

    I think this is one of the reasons the Nissan 1.6 engines last so long... they run very cool and the last one I had went over a million km (700,000 miles).

    I don't think the Fiero engines were ever that good.

  15. #65
    "LOGIC!" lopek77's Avatar
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    Japanese vs American... And you guys were laughing at Japanese "junk" few decades ago. I hope everybody learned the lesson and wont be laughing at Chinese "junk".
    I have a great experience with Japanese cars, and terrible with American brands. I'm sticking with what works the best for me.
    Some of the Nissan engines were impossible to "kill". Times changed though, and the new models are just not the same. It's either cost cutting or weight saving that in many cases will shorten the life of the modern engines, no matter what oil you put in ;-)
    "The clear problem of the outlawing of insult is that too many things can be interpreted as such. Criticism, ridicule, sarcasm, merely stating an alternative point of view to the orthodoxy, can be interpreted as insult."
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  16. #66
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Chain-L is good. But use anything, as long as you use it frequently enough. The thinner it is, the more often you have to reapply it.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

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    Well, I for one find cyccommute pretty convincing.
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  18. #68
    "LOGIC!" lopek77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springs View Post
    Well, I for one find cyccommute pretty convincing.
    +1

    Mixing science, experience and common sense will create sometimes very heated discussions, and many opinions. The thing is we should listen to every opinion, and try not to poke each others eyes.





    "The clear problem of the outlawing of insult is that too many things can be interpreted as such. Criticism, ridicule, sarcasm, merely stating an alternative point of view to the orthodoxy, can be interpreted as insult."
    Reading without understanding is useless

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  19. #69
    Senior Member trailangel's Avatar
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    I bought some Chain-L in So. Cal. It has the distinctive oder of gear oil.
    Back a couple of decades ago running sew-ups, toe-clips and nail-on cleats, we used to do the hot 90weight treatment to our chains.
    Heat the oil, dip chain, drain off excess and wipe it down good. Lasted a long time… same technic…. get the oil into the chain and if thick enough, will stay there. Will let you know how I like the Chain-L gear oil!

  20. #70
    vol
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    I didn't see all the replies until now. Thanks all for the comments, esp. cyccommute #31 for answering my question.

    In the past (and currently) I have only used Finish Line Cross Country Chain oil and Pedalite Green Oil. Are these considered as low, medium or high viscosity? I just need some idea of how other oils are like, which I've never used, and how thin are considered thin, how thick are considered thick. My impression seems to be the former had lower viscosity than the latter, though not sure.

  21. #71
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    I didn't see all the replies until now. Thanks all for the comments, esp. cyccommute #31 for answering my question.

    In the past (and currently) I have only used Finish Line Cross Country Chain oil and Pedalite Green Oil. Are these considered as low, medium or high viscosity? I just need some idea of how other oils are like, which I've never used, and how thin are considered thin, how thick are considered thick. My impression seems to be the former had lower viscosity than the latter, though not sure.
    That is a good question. I have never seen a viscosity index for chain lubes. I'm not sure how it would help since it's not really a closed system. For example, based on the performance yesterday after a good dooshing in the p-lot, I'm convinced that my formula may be off by a shade or two. Increasingly dusty conditions coupled with some light snow flurries caused the top soil to aerate. BAD NEWS for my chain as the tires were picking up a microscopic top layer of "wet" soil and carrying with it some dust particles. It was the weirdest thing. Anyway, it was throwing it right into my chain. I think I may need to go a little heavier on the Blue...maybe 70/40 as apposed to 50/50. I blame climate change.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    This is BF, making the simple complicated is what it's about.

    At NASA, whenever one of the engineers gets carried away, his co-workers bring him back to reality by saying "Chill, it's not bicycle science!"
    I like this!

  23. #73
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    FB, that's hilarious!
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    Did we figure out what kind of oil works best in a high mileage Fiero yet ?
    A stick of dynamite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    And people wonder why I avoid chain lube threads.

    IMO, and for whatever it's worth, there's more than one way to skin a cat. There are plenty of choices in chain lube, using a variety of approaches. Search for reviews from people riding in similar conditions as you do, and you'll still find disagreement, but you should be able to come up with a short list of 2-3 with potential. Try them, or home brews if you wish, until you find something that works for you.

    Obsessing about chains is a waste of time that could be better spent wearing them out by riding the bike.
    George was only partly right. He should have said, never argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference.

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