seedsbelize 

I went to see a man about a frame today. He'd told me it was a Benotto Aguila de Tachira. Turns out it's an unknown Windsor, and too small for me anyway. He told me he could tell it was Columbus tubing, by the tone it makes when struck. It was decidedly different than the Tange Schwinn I rode over there. It's the first I've ever heard of such a thing. Can any of you folks discern the tubeset by the sound it makes, or was he pulling my leg?
Thanks

jgedwa

Sometimes, yes. Often, good tubing has a nice, high-pitched ping when you hit it. But sometimes it does not. So, its not a good test at all, I would say. But it is fun when a beloved bike of yours makes a pretty ringing tone.

jim

rpenmanparker 

While quick to say I am no expert, my guess would be you could maybe tell the gauge of the tubing, but not the brand. Except for tensile strength properties of all the steel brands and grades are very similar. I wouldn't think tone would be a reliable brand/type identifier. Then there is the effect of the hidden butting, the tube length, even the thickness of the paint. I would bet against that trick.

Bandera

Agree, when I removed the packing from my Rando-ish frame I tapped the TT at the center for a satisfying thin walled "ring". Had to do the same on SL, 531 and got a "thud" on Vitus 979. Music to my ears.

-Bandera

Wilfred Laurier

i would think the paint would have a considerable effect on the tone

but all other things being equal
you might be able to discern a difference in tube wall thickness
but nothing else

all steel has the same stiffness and so will resonate at the same frequency if the geometry is the same

Andrew R Stewart 

I use this method all the time to note the approximate gage of the tube walls. My wedding ring is a thick platinum one and the tone it makes is an indicator of both wall thickness as well as diameter. But there is NO WAY one can tell the actual wall, brand, steel alloy or whether the framebuilder was right or left handed

Who remembers the "ad" in Velo News one April which described how a prominent builder would sweep up all the metal filings from his work shop before he allowed another builder to visit, least the guest discover the secrets of the first builder...? Andy.

rydabent

Kinda reminds me of "car experts" that claim they can tell what brand of spark plug a race car is using by the sound of the exhaust.

Wilfred Laurier

Can't you?

rpenmanparker 

That's an easy mistake to make, no? What is that they say about the difference between @#^% and Shinola? Not the bike brand, the brown shoe polish.

fietsbob

there is some tone difference if its a butted steel tube as the wall thickness is less in the center ..



OP being in Mexico I assume he means a Mexican domestic Windsor which would be a while ago, since it also was a trade name resold.

they had sponsorship money in the 70's after the Olympics (Merckx De Rosa Hour bike was logo'd Windsor , with the payment of sufficient Money )

Eddy having his own company its been resprayed since .

JohnDThompson 

Quite so. I happen to have a bare (unpainted) 531 frame hanging in my shop, and a powercoated 531 frame as well. The bare frame frame is much more resonant than the coated frame. If your browser can play .amr files, you can hear the difference:

Bare 531

Coated 531

seedsbelize 

I'm thinking it is domestic. I identified it by the Windsor stamped seat stay caps. It has a number stamped into the bb, and otherwise I didn't look close enough for other indicators; just that it's too small for me. I'll go over in the next few days and photograph it, in an attempt to figure out just what it is. Thanks for the replies. Interestingly, when he tapped the top tube, his young son, sitting across the room, identified it as Columbus. Maybe the whole act was choreographed.

Tim_Iowa

I use the "ping" test to check the butts on the tube; the thicker butted sections near the ends won't ring as brightly as the thinner sections in the middle.

My Reynolds 753 and Excelle Eco steel bikes both have nice, high, ringing tones. My Tange Prestige bike is more of a "clang". All are double butted, heat treated steel.

Wilfred Laurier

i used to think that
but being welded to another tube
or brazed into a lug
is probably going to have as much or more effect on the sound at the ends of the tubes

Tim_Iowa

That's probably true. The 3 bikes I mentioned are all silver brazed lugged construction.

Obviously, the closer you get to the end of the tube, the more damped the sound will be by the nearby joint.

But you usually can find a point about 1/3 of the way down a butted tube where the tone abruptly changes.

lostarchitect 

So, he told you it was a Benotto, but it actually had Windsor stamped on it? Then his kid ID's Columbus from across the room by a ping? Yeah, I would not trust this guy at all. Sounds like it's all BS.

3alarmer 

...pretty good photos of a Windsor catalog here.

I have a tin ear, but I use the tap/tone test to check for butting in the tubing with some success.
There were Mexican made Benotto bikes, maybe that's the source of the confusion ?

rpenmanparker 

But very different gauges likely.

Tim_Iowa

Yes. The Riv is OS 753, with probably .8/.6/.8 butts (I'd read that the 753 Rivs were spec'd thicker than the standard, which I think was .7/.5/.7 on 753 racing frames).
The Giordana is OS Excelle Eco. No clue on the butting, but it's very thin. I can squeeze the tube with my fingers in the thinnest, center butted portion and feel it flex. Probably .7/.5/.7 or similar.
The Schwinn KOM is Tange Prestige. No clue on the butting, but it's a vintage MTB so it's probably 1/.7/1 or something similarly stout, like a touring tubeset.

seedsbelize 

Thanks 3alarmer. I had seen that one. There are only two models with identifiable seat stay caps--the profesional and international, I believe. My only interest, at this point, is to try and figure out what it is, for future reference. It's too small for me, has a couple dings in the top tube, and he's asking much more than I would pay. But both he knows and I know, that I AM the market for vintage bicycles in Mérida, and possibly all of Yucatán. And this frame is way to big for 95% of the buying public. So he has a big fish on the line. All that said, I have bought stuff from him in the past. An 84 Schwinn Traveler frameset and a wheel set. And an 87 Prelude in pristine condition from his neighbor. It's a bit of a gold mine so I check in occasionally to see what he has. Thanks for all the replies.

3alarmer 

...if it's a Windsor Professional, it looks a lot like a Cinelli, with the same lugs, but the fork crown is different.

Here's a Professional I ride sometimes, they are pretty nice bikes to ride.

zandoval 

One of the favourite bikes around our house has a Sears Ted Williams frame that I was throwing away - I noticed as I picked it up that it was very light - And yes it did have a distenct ring to plucking - We call it a sleeper and its a very fast fun Frankin bike...

seedsbelize 

I have a Free Spirit frame here that I can barely pick up, and I'm a big, strong man. I use it as a truing stand.

rpenmanparker 

Well not really the same lugs. Cinelli's are investment cast and sold under their own name. Maybe you mean similar looking because they are long point style.

LesterOfPuppets

My time trial bike is a Free Spirit. Made in Korea.