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  1. #51
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Flip side is this: what if the shop gets the measurement wrong? What if they purposely provide an incorrect measurement because you have said you will be purchasing online?

    You will be entitled to a full refund for the price of advice: $0.00

    The rest of it will be on you -- returning or exchanging the post sourced online, or eating the cost if it's a no-return situation like CL or ebay.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  2. #52
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendo252 View Post
    I think if you need to get help measuring the seat post at the LBS you are honor-bound to buy it (the seat post) from them.

    My $0.02...
    +1

    I don't think the information should be charged for, but I think the customer should to the right thing. Unfortunately, people these days on a number of threads (I keep thinking of that dude who wanted to ride with an organized tour and sneak a stealth spot at their campsite but not pay because he didn't eat their food or use their SAG truck) don't seem to have an idea of what the right thing is (or have the desire to do it, not sure which). Man, I'm too young to be talking about "people these days", or at least I think so and then I look at the college students I teach and realize exactly how much younger than I they are.
    Last edited by himespau; 04-24-14 at 08:18 AM.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  3. #53
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
    "Back When" I was "in the business" our layout intentionally kept the service & assembly staff out of sight/access to the public.
    It was the job of the front of house staff to take care of customers: measuring a frame for seatpost size, taking in & accurately estimating a repair or selling mom a new Pixie for her daughter is what I paid them to do. Standing around, not so much.

    Why would that change?

    -Bandera
    Performance Bikes charges $60 an hour and their mechs are on on "display."
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  4. #54
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Flip side is this: what if the shop gets the measurement wrong? What if they purposely provide an incorrect measurement because you have said you will be purchasing online?

    You will be entitled to a full refund for the price of advice: $0.00

    The rest of it will be on you -- returning or exchanging the post sourced online, or eating the cost if it's a no-return situation like CL or ebay.
    Are you in the business of disinformation, m con lonx?
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  5. #55
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
    Are you in the business of disinformation, m con lonx?
    Ha! No, just sayin'...

    Who is at fault if you crank down on a 26.8 post, per bike shop free advice, and crack the seat tube which was spec'd for a 27.2?

    If a shop gets a measurement wrong, they should be on the hook for exchange or sourcing the correct post; if they break a bike, they should be on the hook for repairing it or making good on the situation.

    What recourse should one expect if bad free advice leads to unwanted results...?
    Last edited by mconlonx; 04-24-14 at 08:59 AM.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  6. #56
    Senior Member daf1009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nirVELOvana View Post
    I've taken Chinese-sourced reproductions of carbon fiber frames, bars, stems and whatnot into shops and have asked the guy on the floor to measure or weigh the question part to confirm how similar it is to the orginal. Always get enthusiastic service and cooperation.

    I've had a fork cut gratis; gotten a free carbon paste packet off 'em one time; a spare headset dust cover they had laying around in a drawer another time just by asking.

    I also always express my genuine gratitude with a big smile, a manly hand shake with a greased palm (a buck is enough) and a knowing wink though (out of sight and earshot of the owner; just in case)

    You catch more flies with honey...
    I do not often go here...but...this posting made me feel slimey! You go into a shop, have them do significant work for you, they give you stuff...and you grease their palm...with a BUCK? Even in big cities like Atlanta, we are losing our local shops at an alarming rate...and this goes to show why, IMHO. I am sorry nirVELOvana if you did not mean it the way I interpreted it...but...wow...
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  7. #57
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Ha! No, just sayin'...

    Who is at fault if you crank down on a 26.8 post, per bike shop free advice, and crack the seat tube which was spec'd for a 27.2?
    Intentionally giving bad advice is much different than making an honest mistake. Most seat posts have the size stamped somewhere, as I'm sure you are aware. In the rare instance that it is not, or it has been "defaced," then it only takes a few minutes to check fit with a known size. As a matter of fact, even some of the stamped sizes are off by a few microns so it "pays" to purchase a properly fit post. That is how I would approach 'the sale.'
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  8. #58
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daf1009 View Post
    I do not often go here...but...this posting made me feel slimey! You go into a shop, have them do significant work for you, they give you stuff...and you grease their palm...with a BUCK? Even in big cities like Atlanta, we are losing our local shops at an alarming rate...and this goes to show why, IMHO. I am sorry nirVELOvana if you did not mean it the way I interpreted it...but...wow...
    I ran into an elderly lady a few years ago, and she was lost...probably even a little deranged. She needed to get to her eye doctor, and when she asked me for directions I obliged. She was not sure she could make it, so she asked if she could follow me. It was clear on the other side of the "burb," but again, I obliged. She was very thankful and slipped me a buck before I drove away. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but that dollar sort of made me laugh. Well worth it, IMO.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  9. #59
    Senior Member macca33's Avatar
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    Any clever business owner knows that it is all about 'Swings and Roundabouts' - you may miss out on the swing, but catch the roundabout and goodwill is a highly valued commodity.

    I have two local LBS and have a good relationship with both of them, to the point where advice is freely given and discounts always provided on purchases. I do 99% of my own work on my bikes and do frequent online components suppliers, but if I need anything urgently, I purchase locally.

    I have also recommended the shops to friends who have gone on to purchase bikes and other equipment from them. I tend to drop-in fairly regularly to have a yarn and a laugh, which is always accommodated and both owners/staff participate in regular local rides and the local club. The relationship is fairly symbiotic.

    Getting back to the OP's question, the minor inconvenience of providing that assistance could yield dividends in the long term and a shop owner would be silly to try and charge for such service.

    cheers
    CAAD10 Berzerker - Ultegra6800
    CAAD10 Team - Ultegra6800

  10. #60
    30 YR Wrench BikeWise1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    I guess I just don't buy into bike shops being some magical business in a story book land that is all about smiles, handshakes, greased palms, favors, honor codes, etc. I am much more comfortable with a straightforward business model for bike retailing much as if it were the local grocery chain, drug store chain, or department store. Maybe that is why I like Performance Bike Shop and Bike Barn in Houston so much. They are of a size to make bike retailing just like any other retail commodity. I don't want to have to worry about whether Mom and Pop have enough to eat. I don't want favors because I am a regular customer. Hey, if I get a freebie like a free steerer tube cut, I'm happy about it, and I express my thanks verbally but not likely any other way. I just don't want to expect it, be upset if I don't get it, or experience all the other emotional involvement so many folks posting here seem to relish in LBS shopping. It is just a bike; it is just a store selling bikes; I am just their customer when I walk in; I am just not their customer when I shop online. It doesn't have to be so mystical.
    Magical? Not hardly. Based on relationship? Absolutely. Maybe you've just never enjoyed being taken care of a little better because you have shown you care about keeping your money local. I am in a college town. There are certainly many students who shop like you....they seem like they want the least amount of interaction, and are more comfortable with the faceless internet or corporate structure. But lately, I have noticed more and more college aged guys who are so blown away by the service they get, and the fact that we call them by name when they walk in, that they start eschewing the easy internet purchase because they've found they enjoy the experience of being more than a number in a database. They like knowing they'll be taken care of quickly because they bothered to think to ask what the shop fave beer is and showed up once with a six pack. Life is all about relationships-and they can be deeper than just dollars and cents.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeWise1 View Post
    Magical? Not hardly. Based on relationship? Absolutely. Maybe you've just never enjoyed being taken care of a little better because you have shown you care about keeping your money local. I am in a college town. There are certainly many students who shop like you....they seem like they want the least amount of interaction, and are more comfortable with the faceless internet or corporate structure. But lately, I have noticed more and more college aged guys who are so blown away by the service they get, and the fact that we call them by name when they walk in, that they start eschewing the easy internet purchase because they've found they enjoy the experience of being more than a number in a database. They like knowing they'll be taken care of quickly because they bothered to think to ask what the shop fave beer is and showed up once with a six pack. Life is all about relationships-and they can be deeper than just dollars and cents.
    As I said previously, the disconnect may be all about the fact that I don't drink beer. It seems to be the controlling factor in LBS-customer relations. More importantly though, this is not about online vs. brick and mortar shopping. In any form of buying I care only about slection and price. I wouldn't do well at Cheers. i don't care if everybody knows my name. But understand, I am not talking about being purposely cold or rude when I go into a store. I'm just not looking to cultivate a relationship. Funny thing is sometimes it just happens. That 's okay too. It is just not a prerequisite for me to be satisfied with an LBS. That's why I do so well with the large, impersonal chains.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  12. #62
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    As I said previously, the disconnect may be all about the fact that I don't drink beer. It seems to be the controlling factor in LBS-customer relations. More importantly though, this is not about online vs. brick and mortar shopping. In any form of buying I care only about slection and price. I wouldn't do well at Cheers. i don't care if everybody knows my name. But understand, I am not talking about being purposely cold or rude when I go into a store. I'm just not looking to cultivate a relationship. Funny thing is sometimes it just happens. That 's okay too. It is just not a prerequisite for me to be satisfied with an LBS. That's why I do so well with the large, impersonal chains.
    May I ask what it is that you do for a living?
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
    May I ask what it is that you do for a living?
    Well I grew up in the retail men's wear business. Nevertheless, I spent my career as an R&D chemist in the plastics industry but with significant customer relations responsibilities. Go figure.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  14. #64
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Well I grew up in the retail men's wear business. Nevertheless, I spent my career as an R&D chemist in the plastics industry but with significant customer relations responsibilities. Go figure.
    In either of those two places did people call you by your name, or was it just "hey you?"
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
    In either of those two places did people call you by your name, or was it just "hey you?"
    What does cultivation of normal interpersonal relationships in one's work life have to do with how one patronizes retail business establishments? Nada. Are you going to ask next whether I have a relationship with my family members? That is how ridiculous this is.

    Some folks just don't need to get all warm and fuzzy with strangers operating a business they're buying from. Why is this so hard to understand? Different strokes for different folks. Just sayin' there is a place for all types of bike retailers, because there are all type of customers, not just the kissy-kissy type on either side of the cash register.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  16. #66
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    What does cultivation of normal interpersonal relationships in one's work life have to do with how one patronizes retail business establishments? Nada. Are you going to ask next whether I have a relationship with my family members? That is how ridiculous this is.

    Some folks just don't need to get all warm and fuzzy with strangers operating a business they're buying from. Why is this so hard to understand? Different strokes for different folks. Just sayin' there is a place for all types of bike retailers, because there are all type of customers, not just the kissy-kissy type on either side of the cash register.
    Yet, you allowed me to get somewhat "personal" with you on through an anonymous online web forum.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  17. #67
    Senior Member SquidPuppet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
    Yet, you allowed me to get somewhat "personal" with you on through an anonymous online web forum.
    Because this is a social place, not a place of business. He isn't buying something from you.

    I understand what he is saying. When I am doing business with a plumber to repair a leaking pipe, I only care about two things, his workmanship and his price. If he is friendly and pleasant, that's nice, but not a requirement. rpenmanparker feels the same way about bike shops. Seems fair and simple enough to me. It's business, not a personal relationship.

  18. #68
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    Actually something else is going one here. As a stranger, a first time or rare customer I want to be treated just as well in a store as a regular customer. The LBS that can do that is doing it right.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  19. #69
    Bandolero Bandrada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
    Because this is a social place, not a place of business. He isn't buying something from you.

    I understand what he is saying. When I am doing business with a plumber to repair a leaking pipe, I only care about two things, his workmanship and his price. If he is friendly and pleasant, that's nice, but not a requirement. rpenmanparker feels the same way about bike shops. Seems fair and simple enough to me. It's business, not a personal relationship.
    Oh, my...

    You'd probably make a good pimp.
    Nothing better than a good chain lube thread...

  20. #70
    Senior Member SquidPuppet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
    Oh, my...

    You'd probably make a good pimp.
    Doubtfull. Because if I were to have helped an elderly lady find her way across town, I would have refused her money.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    What does cultivation of normal interpersonal relationships in one's work life have to do with how one patronizes retail business establishments? Nada. Are you going to ask next whether I have a relationship with my family members? That is how ridiculous this is.

    Some folks just don't need to get all warm and fuzzy with strangers operating a business they're buying from. Why is this so hard to understand? Different strokes for different folks. Just sayin' there is a place for all types of bike retailers, because there are all type of customers, not just the kissy-kissy type on either side of the cash register.
    I agree, I think, in that I would prefer a salesman to be cordial and informative (if necessary) rather than garrulous and overly "friendly." I may have questions, but I don't like being "sold." I do value information, and if I needed it I would pay for it with my purchases. But beyond that, the thing I value most about a LBS is that it is local. I believe that it is vital to each of our individual prosperities to keep dollars turning in our communities whenever possible. Our culture where everyone wants the most for the least for himself and cares nothing about his neighbor is one of the reasons we lose jobs to countries that are willing to provide more for less. So, I buy at the LBS, not because I need the human contact, but because I believe that the LBS is more valuable to everyone than a boarded-up storefront. Because local shops still compete with each other, there are several places nearby I can go to get good service and buy at no more than a reasonable markup. I'm lucky, I guess, that I don't HAVE to save a few bucks on tubes or a pair of shoes in order to ride my bike.

  22. #72
    Andrew R Stewart Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
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    As the OP I ask that this thread be closed. As soon as it drifted into personal attacks the cause was lost. I only wanted a discussion about how to value information that one can't gain on their own. I offered two variations on the shop's actions, neither was done by the shop and not by me at ant shop I've worked/owned. But The question was put out here as an academic exercise. that some seem to not be able to understand critical debate is sad. So, again, can this thread please be closed and locked down. Andy.

  23. #73
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    I value good information when sorted out by an expert, but find it lacking these days in bike shops. I went to four shops over the past three months and the floor staff either knew absolutely spit or in a recent visit to a high end shop, they patronized my wish to buy a certain make and style of custom frame that they represent. A rider comes in on their bike and specifically says they are interested in a $6k frame and you tell him he needs to give it time to learn what his needs are. I mention a 1200K brevet this fall. He says, what is a brevet. I say it is like you know Paris-Brest-Paris. I explain the whole endurance. rando thingy to blank eyes. Tells me again I should learn what my needs are before making a big decision. I tell the owner the primary reason is because my current frame does not fit me and I know exactly what I need in a bike, listing them off quickly and that only two frames meet my needs, one of which he sells. I should mention I have bought three bikes and gear for my family members there.....maybe only $3k over the past couple years. Not a great customer but one who is recognized. The right thing would have been for the shop owner to have said was that we can help you, hey, grab your bike and throw it on the stand. Let me take a quick look. That is how business was earned in the old days. It can't be easy running a bike shop.

    Why would I not purchase all of my stuff online and do it myself?

    What does a LBS offer me?

    I can do all of my own maintenance quicker than taking the bike to the shop.

    I do not value information, I value knowledge and wisdom. Information is free.

  24. #74
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    As the OP I ask that this thread be closed. As soon as it drifted into personal attacks the cause was lost. I only wanted a discussion about how to value information that one can't gain on their own. I offered two variations on the shop's actions, neither was done by the shop and not by me at ant shop I've worked/owned. But The question was put out here as an academic exercise. that some seem to not be able to understand critical debate is sad. So, again, can this thread please be closed and locked down. Andy.
    ibtl....sorry Andrew, because I think it is a genuine conundrum that's probably worth exploring. I'm honestly conflicted.

    I think that as the OP you can actually delete the whole thread, but I've not tried that myself. Bike shops are not the only
    business model that has been severely impacted by Amazon, that's for sure. I used to sell used books some years back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrierman View Post
    No wonder everybody hates you.

  25. #75
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I like talking cycling with the staff that are also cyclists (when the staff isn't stoned).
    Why all the stoner hate, dude?

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