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  1. #1
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    Super strong cassette body?

    My son is living in Seattle and has blown out two cassette bodies this summer. Seems the pawls cannot handle the load he puts on them. Is there anyone out there that knows of a 10 speed hub that can handle some serious pounding up hills?

    Chris King looks good, but seems complicated.

    DT Swiss looks good, too. Super simple idea and real easy to service, but can they handle high torque loads?

  2. #2
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    What makes and models has he damaged? Shimano, SRAM and Campy freehub bodies appear to stand up to Pro road and MTB riders with little problems so I wonder what brand(s) your son is breaking.

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    philwood

    Shimano freehubs seem to made of thinner stuff these days. Failure reports are more common now than in the past.

  4. #4
    Senior Member chriskmurray's Avatar
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    My favorite hubs are from White Industries but there are a lot of great brands out there like DT, Hope, Hadley, King, Phil Wood. Any of those should be able to handle anything your son can throw at them.

  5. #5
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    Seems the pawls cannot handle the load he puts on them.
    I doubt your son needs anything particularly fancy hubwise; my guess is he's currently using something a bit nasty.

    What brand is the hub? I'm willing to bet it's not Shimano.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    My son is living in Seattle and has blown out two cassette bodies this summer. Seems the pawls cannot handle the load he puts on them.
    It's likely that your son's riding habits are the problem. Breaking cassette bodies is extremely rare. One body could be a defect, two is definitely a trend. Before jumping into expensive replacements that may suffer the same fate it would be helpful to know what gears your son is using on those hills. I'm also curious why your son is unable to find the assistance he needs in Seattle - at Wright Brothers Cycle Works - Seattle USA for example.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  7. #7
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    To amplify what others posted: Get a wheel with a (low-end) true Shimano hub. If he breaks that, then your son's usage is the problem -- acknowledging that he won't likely change, start looking for a tandem specific hub.

  8. #8
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    IDK if their freehub driver uses any More pawls..

    Bending? solid steel Nut fixed, not a QR type may be something cheap to try.

    I think Shimano's tandem hubs are still using the 10x1 axle, just longer .. 145
    Last edited by fietsbob; 07-05-14 at 11:35 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    It's likely that your son's riding habits are the problem. .
    Quote Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
    To amplify what others posted: Get a wheel with a (low-end) true Shimano hub. If he breaks that, then your son's usage is the problem -- acknowledging that he won't likely change, start looking for a tandem specific hub.
    How does the kids riding style damage a freehub ? Coast, then slam on the pedals, repeatedly ?? Many of us put out a lot of watts with never a problem.
    Last edited by Homebrew01; 07-05-14 at 12:08 PM.
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  10. #10
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    which ones has he broken? please believe with any hub they need maintenance. some more often than others

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    How does the kids riding style damage a freehub ? Coast, then slam on the pedals, repeatedly ?? Many of us put out a lot of watts with never a problem.
    Precisely on point. He'd have to be a far outlier, say ten times stronger than average, to regularly break freehub bodies -- something the OP has not revealed. Thus I recommended he first confirm the problem is not low quality hubs.

    Unfortunately this is typical of the non-conversations on this forum. The OP throws out a poorly defined problem and does not follow with clarification, responses, etc. Then the rest of us (foolishly) offer all kinds of imagined "solutions" spinning into ever widening circles of improbability.

    We don't know about the make or quality of the hubs, whether or not they actually failed, the mechanisms of failure, the circumstances of failure, the rider's characteristics and techniques, and so much more.
    Last edited by AnkleWork; 07-05-14 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post

    Unfortunately this is typical of the non-conversations on this forum. The OP throws out a poorly defined problem and does not follow with clarification, responses, etc. Then the rest of us (foolishly) offer all kinds of imagined "solutions" spinning into ever widening circles of improbability.
    This happens much more than it should.
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  13. #13
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    Homebrew01; Ditto! It would also be great if responders would first read the original post... If they had they would find that the question was about breakage of cassette freehubs not wheel hubs in general. But like others, I have to wonder just what the youngster is doing to break them.... With a zillion bike shops in Seattle, the recommendation to visit one seems sound.

    /K

  14. #14
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    To clarify the my original post where I said the pawls seem unable to handle the load, what is happening is the pawls and pawl springs are coming apart from each other. I believe the pawl pivots may be loosening and backing themselves out, or are experiencing fatigue and breaking because the first body that failed one pawl was floating inside the body. That was last summer.

    The one still in place was chipped due to the spring failing. I do believe he "jumps" on the rear wheel quite hard when jamming a hill. Normally he climbs in a 50 x 21 gear. Not too horribly big, but the hills are very steep.

    Keep in mind I am several states away from him and going on the information he provides in pictures and words. He has visited several shops in the area, but relies on me to get the parts and assemble them.

    The wheel is a Velocity road wheel with a Deep V rim, 32 3 cross lacing, and Velocity road hub. I believe the hub is supplied by the same company that supplies Formula hubs, which is likely the issue.

    Shimano cassette bodies are not the greatest as I have seen many fail the same way under race conditions.

    I have done quite a bit of research and have decided to go DT Swiss. Got my hands on one, took it apart and was mystified why this design has not been copied yet. Super simple, easy and effective. Talked with the fella that owned the hub and he says it has been on 3 mountain bikes so far and no issues. The hub was 4 years old.

    As a side note, the current wheel fully tensioned (according to Park tension meter) and day one he was flexing the wheel or frame enough to rub the tire on the brake pads. Had to lower the pads to prevent rub through. Caad10 frame. The kid is an ox. I raced with some seriously big guys that never had wheel rub like this. Cassette body failures, but not wheel rub.

  15. #15
    Senior Member dave42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    To clarify the my original post where I said the pawls seem unable to handle the load, what is happening is the pawls and pawl springs are coming apart from each other. I believe the pawl pivots may be loosening and backing themselves out, or are experiencing fatigue and breaking because the first body that failed one pawl was floating inside the body. That was last summer.

    The one still in place was chipped due to the spring failing. I do believe he "jumps" on the rear wheel quite hard when jamming a hill. Normally he climbs in a 50 x 21 gear. Not too horribly big, but the hills are very steep.

    Keep in mind I am several states away from him and going on the information he provides in pictures and words. He has visited several shops in the area, but relies on me to get the parts and assemble them.

    The wheel is a Velocity road wheel with a Deep V rim, 32 3 cross lacing, and Velocity road hub. I believe the hub is supplied by the same company that supplies Formula hubs, which is likely the issue.

    Shimano cassette bodies are not the greatest as I have seen many fail the same way under race conditions.

    I have done quite a bit of research and have decided to go DT Swiss. Got my hands on one, took it apart and was mystified why this design has not been copied yet. Super simple, easy and effective. Talked with the fella that owned the hub and he says it has been on 3 mountain bikes so far and no issues. The hub was 4 years old.

    As a side note, the current wheel fully tensioned (according to Park tension meter) and day one he was flexing the wheel or frame enough to rub the tire on the brake pads. Had to lower the pads to prevent rub through. Caad10 frame. The kid is an ox. I raced with some seriously big guys that never had wheel rub like this. Cassette body failures, but not wheel rub.
    Does he race?

  16. #16
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    The gear one climbs in means nothing without knowing the grade and speed. 50/21 on a 3% grade is not a strain, but the same gear on an 8% grade at 8 mph is very hard on the bike. Normally climbing in a high gear (out of the saddle only) is done to maintain speed over a relatively short hill or to change up the muscles used for a short time, and is generally done still using a respectable rpm rate. The rocking that the bike experiences during out of the saddle riding absorbs most of the shock at normal climbing speed and cadence.
    Last edited by cny-bikeman; 07-11-14 at 05:13 AM.
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  17. #17
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    Yes, 50/21 on a 8% grade is big, too big for me at least. He does not race, just likes to ride hard for stress relief. Nice thing is he will wait for you to catch up. Usually on the down hill! Yeah, he is one of those that likes to demonstrate his superiority on the climb.

    DT Swiss also has a 36t star ratchet, and steel cassette body options. I know what he will be riding.

    To forum members: Please, when communicating in the virtual world remember your manners and practice good interpersonal skills. Being blunt or argumentative is never going to win medals. I deal with this kind of thing all day long and it bothers me that people forget the other readers are human, too.

    Ask yourself, is this how I talk to my children? My mother? One of the nuns at the church? If not, then don't print it.

    Avoid the snarky responses and comments, it will brighten your day!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    Yes, 50/21 on a 8% grade is big, too big for me at least. He does not race, just likes to ride hard for stress relief. Nice thing is he will wait for you to catch up. Usually on the down hill! Yeah, he is one of those that likes to demonstrate his superiority on the climb.

    DT Swiss also has a 36t star ratchet, and steel cassette body options. I know what he will be riding.

    To forum members: Please, when communicating in the virtual world remember your manners and practice good interpersonal skills. Being blunt or argumentative is never going to win medals. I deal with this kind of thing all day long and it bothers me that people forget the other readers are human, too.

    Ask yourself, is this how I talk to my children? My mother? One of the nuns at the church? If not, then don't print it.

    Avoid the snarky responses and comments, it will brighten your day!
    Thanks for the schooling; perhaps you should apply it to yourself first.
    BTW, you should definitely try the DT hub.

  19. #19
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    Was going to suggest that the described problem is most often seen with cassettes whose owners applied grease to the internals rather than oil, thus preventing the pawl springs from doing their work, but your son's strength and riding technique probably constitute a sufficient explanation. Still, it's odd that you don't heard of this problem occurring with professional sprinters such as Greipel and Cavendish.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
    . . . Still, it's odd that you don't heard of this problem occurring with professional sprinters such as Greipel and Cavendish.
    And probably with ultra light weight freehub bodies.

  21. #21
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    I don't get it either. I have seen Shimano bodies fail in the same manner, but not repeatedly for the same rider. The DT Swiss hub is on the way. Just going to have to deal with the aluminum body, no steel available for the 350 hub. Bummer.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
    To forum members: Please, when communicating in the virtual world remember your manners and practice good interpersonal skills. Being blunt or argumentative is never going to win medals. I deal with this kind of thing all day long and it bothers me that people forget the other readers are human, too.
    To this particular forum member: Please when giving feedback or suggestions provide specific examples. I see little in previous posts that I would read as argumentative or snarky, and blunt is just an interpretation of straightforward (also, see my signature).
    There's no such thing as a routine repair.

    Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

    If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

    Please take the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

  23. #23
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    Perhaps I am too sensitive. Please accept my apologies if any of you were offended by my comments.

    Can't wait to build the wheel! Until then, he will just have to keep running.

  24. #24
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    The best hubs are shimano ultegras and 105's. The freehub bodies are for the most part bullet proof. If he rides in the rain a lot or gets the hub under water then the problem is maintenance.
    I am not impressed with the DT hubs except for the older types with outboard bearings and normal pawls.

  25. #25
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    From what I understand, a gear like 50/21 is a strain on the rider, but not really one on the rear hub and pawls. For that, you need the leverage of a much lower gear. (Shimano has rated some cassette hubs only up to a 34T rear cog, but not a 36T, for example.)

    It's probably the "I do believe he "jumps" on the rear wheel quite hard when jamming a hill" that does it -- if the pawl is floating somewhere in between engagement and the "outer" part of the ramp, the edge can chip if banged into engagement. I don't know if this is my nature or an unconscious desire to treat my equipment well, but when going from coast to pedalling, I pedal a little lighter until cranking up the output (which still isn't much.) Perhaps developing slightly better habits would help your son?
    Last edited by ThermionicScott; 07-16-14 at 10:14 PM.
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