Rear spokes failing
02-29-12, 05:07 PM
#1
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Rear spokes failing
So my road bike is a not-too-special Trek 1000, with not-too-special ALX Aclass 300 wheels (24/28 pair-laced, here's a pic). They've been fine for about 1000 miles, but I think I'm finally paying the piper for Clyding on reduced spokes (I'm nearer 250 than 200).
About a month ago, I broke a rear spoke; managed to still ride ~10mi home, replaced the spoke, it trued back up pretty easy, no worries.
Then last week I broke another (not the same spoke, if it makes any difference). I replaced it, and it took a little more effort to true it up.
Both of the broken spokes were non-drive side; and they both broke right where the nail-head-looking end is in the hub-hole. (insert proper wrencher terminology here!)
So I'm worried that in the coming weeks/months I'm going to start popping rear spokes all the time. Is there any way I can diagnose the state of this wheel? Find any spokes that are subject to imminent failure and replace them first? Or should I just ditch this wheel and get a 32H or 36H replacement more fitting my fatness?
(And I'm also guessing I don't need to worry about the front wheel, please confirm or deny...)
About a month ago, I broke a rear spoke; managed to still ride ~10mi home, replaced the spoke, it trued back up pretty easy, no worries.
Then last week I broke another (not the same spoke, if it makes any difference). I replaced it, and it took a little more effort to true it up.
Both of the broken spokes were non-drive side; and they both broke right where the nail-head-looking end is in the hub-hole. (insert proper wrencher terminology here!)
So I'm worried that in the coming weeks/months I'm going to start popping rear spokes all the time. Is there any way I can diagnose the state of this wheel? Find any spokes that are subject to imminent failure and replace them first? Or should I just ditch this wheel and get a 32H or 36H replacement more fitting my fatness?
(And I'm also guessing I don't need to worry about the front wheel, please confirm or deny...)
02-29-12, 05:12 PM
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Your wheels probably had only the factory supplied tension - which the shop you purchased the bicycle/wheels from did not take the time to work over and finish.
Even on mid-range bikes - the wheels are only about 70-80 percent done and require additional tensionning and truing before the bike goes out the door.
Fatigue has probably already set-in and the damage is done.
Three choices:
1. Return bike to LBS and explain the problem - request a fix/service/warranty repair, etc...
2. Rebuild both wheels with new spokes via a competent wheel builder...who'll get the tension relatively even and high.
3. Get a quality built set of new wheels.
Higher spoke count would be nice - but your weight of "closer" to 250 is not too unusual to say the least...
=8-)
Even on mid-range bikes - the wheels are only about 70-80 percent done and require additional tensionning and truing before the bike goes out the door.
Fatigue has probably already set-in and the damage is done.
Three choices:
1. Return bike to LBS and explain the problem - request a fix/service/warranty repair, etc...
2. Rebuild both wheels with new spokes via a competent wheel builder...who'll get the tension relatively even and high.
3. Get a quality built set of new wheels.
Higher spoke count would be nice - but your weight of "closer" to 250 is not too unusual to say the least...
=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
02-29-12, 05:27 PM
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with respect to mrrabbit with whom I usually agree on most points, I'm not convinced your problem falls into the class of a warranty/defect entitling you to a break. Even though I consider 1,000 miles to be very short wheel life.
While 250# isn't especially heavy, and might be OK with a top flight low spoke wheel, I'm not surprised you're seeing breakage on a factory wheel of this class.
As mentioned, you're seeing the effects of fatigue, and it's a phenomenon similar to making popcorn. There's always one or two spokes that go sooner than the bulk, but soon enough the process accelerates to where it seems they're all going at once, except for a few holdouts that never go. Expect your 3rd spoke to break sooner rather than later, then expect the wheel to become impossible to ride any distance without more breakage.
If you can find a decent local builder he might be able to rebuild a stronger, more durable wheel, using the same rim and hub. I'd suggest single (or triple) butted 13/14g, or 13/15/14g for the drive side, and lighter 14/15g or 14/16g for the left.
You may wonder why I'm going lighter (except maybe for the 13/14g on the right) but spokes are an example where less can be more. the elbow is only about 80% of the strength of the rest of the spoke, which is why spokes flex and break here the most. By using a spoke with a thinner main section, it can take absorb stress more evenly throughout it's length, reducing the stress riser effect at the elbow.
Otherwise, I'd suggest starting fresh with a standard 32h wheel using double butted spokes (heavier on right than left). I've built 32h wheels of this type for tandem use and they've gone across the country, so your 250#s won't be an issue.
While 250# isn't especially heavy, and might be OK with a top flight low spoke wheel, I'm not surprised you're seeing breakage on a factory wheel of this class.
As mentioned, you're seeing the effects of fatigue, and it's a phenomenon similar to making popcorn. There's always one or two spokes that go sooner than the bulk, but soon enough the process accelerates to where it seems they're all going at once, except for a few holdouts that never go. Expect your 3rd spoke to break sooner rather than later, then expect the wheel to become impossible to ride any distance without more breakage.
If you can find a decent local builder he might be able to rebuild a stronger, more durable wheel, using the same rim and hub. I'd suggest single (or triple) butted 13/14g, or 13/15/14g for the drive side, and lighter 14/15g or 14/16g for the left.
You may wonder why I'm going lighter (except maybe for the 13/14g on the right) but spokes are an example where less can be more. the elbow is only about 80% of the strength of the rest of the spoke, which is why spokes flex and break here the most. By using a spoke with a thinner main section, it can take absorb stress more evenly throughout it's length, reducing the stress riser effect at the elbow.
Otherwise, I'd suggest starting fresh with a standard 32h wheel using double butted spokes (heavier on right than left). I've built 32h wheels of this type for tandem use and they've gone across the country, so your 250#s won't be an issue.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
02-29-12, 06:09 PM
#4
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Hey guys, thanks for the advice; I want to clarify I didn't buy the bike new, I got it off of CL from a guy who had ridden probably many thousands of miles already, but (a) he weighed a lot less than me and (b) he had replaced the stock wheels with these ones I'm talking about. Since I don't know at what point he replaced the wheels, I really have no idea how many miles they've seen. In any case, there is no question of trying to get warranty service or anything like that. Sorry for the confusion as I was unclear.
I don't know what kind of ballpark it would cost to pay a builder to re-lace, but I'm guessing the rims & hubs are not worth the investment, and I should look for some new wheels. Assuming the front wheel, which doesn't bear as much of my fat ass, is OK as-is, I could get a 32H Mavic Open Pro with a 105 hub for under $200.
And then maybe while I ride and enjoy a new rear wheel, I could use the old rear wheel as a learning project and try to rebuild it myself!
I don't know what kind of ballpark it would cost to pay a builder to re-lace, but I'm guessing the rims & hubs are not worth the investment, and I should look for some new wheels. Assuming the front wheel, which doesn't bear as much of my fat ass, is OK as-is, I could get a 32H Mavic Open Pro with a 105 hub for under $200.
And then maybe while I ride and enjoy a new rear wheel, I could use the old rear wheel as a learning project and try to rebuild it myself!
02-29-12, 06:18 PM
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Keep in mind that the "categorical" application of the Mavic Open Pro is "light weight" racing clincher. I.e., it is not built and marketed as an everyday commuter rim. Course, folks who can build and true their own wheels can get away with it...
Have you considered Open Sport or CXP-33 or another rim in the high 400s gram wise?
=8-)
Have you considered Open Sport or CXP-33 or another rim in the high 400s gram wise?
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
02-29-12, 06:36 PM
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Keep in mind that the "categorical" application of the Mavic Open Pro is "light weight" racing clincher. I.e., it is not built and marketed as an everyday commuter rim. Course, folks who can build and true their own wheels can get away with it...
Have you considered Open Sport or CXP-33 or another rim in the high 400s gram wise?
=8-)
Have you considered Open Sport or CXP-33 or another rim in the high 400s gram wise?
=8-)
I have mixed feelings about the value of production wheels for people already having problems. Yes, they're often a great value, and many people do well buying them, then immediately reworking them to so called hand built quality. But they often don't have features like top flight DB spokes, very rarely use mixed gauges to advantage, and it's hard to get them with a spoke and rim package exactly suited to your needs.
Use the $200 wheel as a basis of comparison, then find out what it would cost to have something exactly right. You might phone or email Andy at Yellow Jersey, for a quote. Be sure to tell him what you weight and let him suggest what he feels would best serve.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
03-01-12, 08:54 AM
#8
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Ah, I misspoke again; yes Open Sport is the cheaper one I was looking at. I enjoyed their description:
And thanks for the link 10Wheels, that is an even better deal!
The Mavic Open Sport rim excels in function, durability, and practicality. It offers the same level of precision as some of its pricier brethern, but at less cost. The net result is that with the Open Sport, you can build up an excellent, well rounded wheel set utilizing some of the best hubs, spokes and nipples in the world without having to dig too deep into your pockets. Considering that these rims have the potential of lasting tens of thousands of miles, you will be hard pressed to find a better value of cost per mile.
In the modern era of DeepV This and carbon That, the Open Sport is like a breath of fresh boxed rim section air roughly equivalent to listening to a Beatles album on vinyl, because it sounds better. Holding this rim in your hands is satisfaction itself, as it allows for the realization that in this world, in this time, there still exists a pocket of life less complicated by the rampant merchandization of product for the sake of sales, growth, and all that is deemed "good" by 'The Corporation'.
In the modern era of DeepV This and carbon That, the Open Sport is like a breath of fresh boxed rim section air roughly equivalent to listening to a Beatles album on vinyl, because it sounds better. Holding this rim in your hands is satisfaction itself, as it allows for the realization that in this world, in this time, there still exists a pocket of life less complicated by the rampant merchandization of product for the sake of sales, growth, and all that is deemed "good" by 'The Corporation'.
03-01-12, 06:09 PM
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Hey, I've been having a similar problem since I got a new set of wheels for an old Trek 1220, a little over a year ago. I use this bike to commute and that's about it. I weigh about 190-195 lbs. and I'll carry and extra 20lbs. at most. I've broken 5 or 6 spokes. 1 in the front wheel, the rest in the back. Just broke another one last night. I got the wheels straight from the manufacturer, the bike shop never touched them. So I guess my question is, is it too late for them? Can't I just replace this latest broken spoke and then work up the tension all around the wheel? The wheels are Mavic CXP 22.
I'm OK with doing this work myself, but I'm not sure how much to increase the tension and I don't have the time (or the knowledge) to try and rebuild anything.
Thanks!
I'm OK with doing this work myself, but I'm not sure how much to increase the tension and I don't have the time (or the knowledge) to try and rebuild anything.
Thanks!
03-01-12, 06:28 PM
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Broken front spokes is very rare, so I'd consider that one a fluke and just replace, realign, and (maybe) retension.
The rear is a different story. If the rate of breakage is steady, you might continue to replace spokes as needed. However if, as I suspect, the rate is accelerating it'll soon be impossible to keep up, and you should rebuild fresh.
BTW- there's no reason that a 195# rider should have any (not one) spoke breakage for years. A decent wheel should last you many thousands of miles without needing any service at all. Since you're obviously not doing that well, look for the reasons, besides the obvious "lousy wheel" Factors include unusually bad roads, riding style, and overly narrow tires for the load. If you don't identify the real reason your wheels aren't holding up you'll continue to have issues no matter what you spend.
The rear is a different story. If the rate of breakage is steady, you might continue to replace spokes as needed. However if, as I suspect, the rate is accelerating it'll soon be impossible to keep up, and you should rebuild fresh.
BTW- there's no reason that a 195# rider should have any (not one) spoke breakage for years. A decent wheel should last you many thousands of miles without needing any service at all. Since you're obviously not doing that well, look for the reasons, besides the obvious "lousy wheel" Factors include unusually bad roads, riding style, and overly narrow tires for the load. If you don't identify the real reason your wheels aren't holding up you'll continue to have issues no matter what you spend.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
03-01-12, 06:31 PM
#11
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Hey guys, thanks for the advice; I want to clarify I didn't buy the bike new, I got it off of CL from a guy who had ridden probably many thousands of miles already, but (a) he weighed a lot less than me and (b) he had replaced the stock wheels with these ones I'm talking about. Since I don't know at what point he replaced the wheels, I really have no idea how many miles they've seen. In any case, there is no question of trying to get warranty service or anything like that. Sorry for the confusion as I was unclear.
I don't know what kind of ballpark it would cost to pay a builder to re-lace, but I'm guessing the rims & hubs are not worth the investment, and I should look for some new wheels. Assuming the front wheel, which doesn't bear as much of my fat ass, is OK as-is, I could get a 32H Mavic Open Pro with a 105 hub for under $200.
And then maybe while I ride and enjoy a new rear wheel, I could use the old rear wheel as a learning project and try to rebuild it myself!
I don't know what kind of ballpark it would cost to pay a builder to re-lace, but I'm guessing the rims & hubs are not worth the investment, and I should look for some new wheels. Assuming the front wheel, which doesn't bear as much of my fat ass, is OK as-is, I could get a 32H Mavic Open Pro with a 105 hub for under $200.
And then maybe while I ride and enjoy a new rear wheel, I could use the old rear wheel as a learning project and try to rebuild it myself!
03-01-12, 06:33 PM
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Hey, I've been having a similar problem since I got a new set of wheels for an old Trek 1220, a little over a year ago. I use this bike to commute and that's about it. I weigh about 190-195 lbs. and I'll carry and extra 20lbs. at most. I've broken 5 or 6 spokes. 1 in the front wheel, the rest in the back. Just broke another one last night. I got the wheels straight from the manufacturer, the bike shop never touched them. So I guess my question is, is it too late for them? Can't I just replace this latest broken spoke and then work up the tension all around the wheel? The wheels are Mavic CXP 22.
I'm OK with doing this work myself, but I'm not sure how much to increase the tension and I don't have the time (or the knowledge) to try and rebuild anything.
Thanks!
I'm OK with doing this work myself, but I'm not sure how much to increase the tension and I don't have the time (or the knowledge) to try and rebuild anything.
Thanks!
03-01-12, 08:11 PM
#13
DLifer
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03-01-12, 08:12 PM
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long day, that wasn't clear. didn't just rebuild it, just tried to even out the tension then trued it up.
07-19-14, 05:45 PM
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I might be breaking a rule about dead threads here ... but in case it helps anyone, in my case I thinkthe broken spoke problem was caused by the wheel dishing being off. I tried once again to even out the tension on all of the spokes and this resulted in the wheel being WAY off-center. A little light went on in my head, so I worked to center, then true the wheel. To center the wheel I ended up making the right-side spokes tighter than those on the left. That didn't seem right to me at the time but it has worked, and a bit of research told me it's supposed to be that way. This was about 4 months and 1000 miles ago and I haven't broken a spoke since.
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