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Old 08-18-14, 01:40 PM   #1
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Isn't 1x10/1x11 cross-chaining?

I hear people talk about simplifying to a 1x10 or 1x11 setup -- just one chainring up front. But isn't that automatically cross-chaining in the last two or three high-gear cogs?
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Old 08-18-14, 01:43 PM   #2
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that's a good question. and, i think, it is, but not as bad as it is with two front rings, but close, IMO.
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Old 08-18-14, 01:45 PM   #3
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Perhaps, but I think the assumption is that you'll be spending the vast majority of your time in the center of the cassette, rather than the far ends. (A 1x setup ideally has the chainring centered with the cassette.) This assumes you've put some good thought into your overall range, though.
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Old 08-18-14, 01:48 PM   #4
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I suppose you could set it up so the single front chainring it outboard farther than the smaller of a 2x10 but not out as far as the big ring in a 2x10. Today's 10 and 11 speed chains have more lateral slack than old five and six speed chains, right? So maybe a single ring positioned in between where the small and large ring sit on a double crank would make the lowest two and highest two cogs acceptable?
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Old 08-18-14, 01:58 PM   #5
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I hear people talk about simplifying to a 1x10 or 1x11 setup -- just one chainring up front. But isn't that automatically cross-chaining in the last two or three high-gear cogs?
No because a single (or triple middle) ring chainline can split the difference between small and big on a double.
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Old 08-18-14, 02:03 PM   #6
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Well, then, other than the occasional convenience of using a single front shift to equate to two or three cog shifts, why the heck don't we all go 1x11? Let's all admit it. No matter how well we set up our FD, nine times out of ten, a problem shift is a front shift. I have one of those Fredly anti-chain-drop gizmos up front that I love for preventing dropped downshifts, but despite my best efforts, it is not terribly uncommon for an adjustment to become a little discombobulated and cause me to drop the chain on an upshift to the big ring. It happens. Rarely. But it happens. And when it does, it is a royal pain.
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Old 08-18-14, 02:10 PM   #7
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Well, then, other than the occasional convenience of using a single front shift to equate to two or three cog shifts, why the heck don't we all go 1x11? Let's all admit it. No matter how well we set up our FD, nine times out of ten, a problem shift is a front shift. I have one of those Fredly anti-chain-drop gizmos up front that I love for preventing dropped downshifts, but despite my best efforts, it is not terribly uncommon for an adjustment to become a little discombobulated and cause me to drop the chain on an upshift to the big ring. It happens. Rarely. But it happens. And when it does, it is a royal pain.
probably because even a few can't seem to agree on much of anything!

but go 1x11 or 10 if you want to. i tossed my FD in 1995 and haven't had any good reason to look for a new one since. that includes a 12,000 mile tour on a 1x7. but i imagine that since most people paid good money for the extra chainring and brifter they darn well think that they need it. besides, all the pro roadies use a FD, right?

i suppose it's the same logic that leads bogey golfers to think they need all those clubs.
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Old 08-18-14, 02:12 PM   #8
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Well, then, other than the occasional convenience of using a single front shift to equate to two or three cog shifts, why the heck don't we all go 1x11? Let's all admit it. No matter how well we set up our FD, nine times out of ten, a problem shift is a front shift. I have one of those Fredly anti-chain-drop gizmos up front that I love for preventing dropped downshifts, but despite my best efforts, it is not terribly uncommon for an adjustment to become a little discombobulated and cause me to drop the chain on an upshift to the big ring. It happens. Rarely. But it happens. And when it does, it is a royal pain.
I don't know; why aren't you running a 1x ?
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Old 08-18-14, 02:23 PM   #9
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This might be a slippery slope. 3x10 leads to 2x10 leads to 1x10 leads to 1x11. And next thing you know, you have hit rock-bottom, and you find yourself in Roloff land.
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Old 08-18-14, 02:27 PM   #10
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The newer rear derallieurs keep the mech. parallel to the rear cogs. Check out some of the sram stuff.
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Old 08-18-14, 02:32 PM   #11
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Isn't 1x10/1x11 cross-chaining?

Has anyone thought of using 2 x 5? Think of it. No cross chaining. Wide range of gears. Heck you could shift it with downtube shifters.
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Old 08-18-14, 02:39 PM   #12
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Well, then, other than the occasional convenience of using a single front shift to equate to two or three cog shifts, why the heck don't we all go 1x11? Let's all admit it. No matter how well we set up our FD, nine times out of ten, a problem shift is a front shift. I have one of those Fredly anti-chain-drop gizmos up front that I love for preventing dropped downshifts, but despite my best efforts, it is not terribly uncommon for an adjustment to become a little discombobulated and cause me to drop the chain on an upshift to the big ring. It happens. Rarely. But it happens. And when it does, it is a royal pain.
It's more than an occasional convenience for me, and I haven't dropped a chain in years.

I'm sure SRAM is working hard to get us all on a 1x11 (or 12 or 13) setup before too long, though. They've fought mightily to defeat the triple.
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Old 08-18-14, 04:27 PM   #13
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Has anyone thought of using 2 x 5? Think of it. No cross chaining. Wide range of gears. Heck you could shift it with downtube shifters.
Yeah, awesome. 52/42 x 13/19. Sounds great. "Wide range of gears." Perfect for Sean Kelly and any egotist.

"You need a very low gear to climb the Tourmalet, something custom created, 42 x 21 or even 42 x 23."

It's insane, why didn't they just at least entertain the notion of compact gearing? You don't need a power meter for an answer. They still had math in 1975. Instead we just got Merckx climbing Ventoux with 42 x 19 and this just perpetuated the wasted-effort hard an fantasy which still lingers.
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Old 08-18-14, 07:05 PM   #14
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Yeah, awesome. 52/42 x 13/19. Sounds great. "Wide range of gears." Perfect for Sean Kelly and any egotist.

"You need a very low gear to climb the Tourmalet, something custom created, 42 x 21 or even 42 x 23."

It's insane, why didn't they just at least entertain the notion of compact gearing? You don't need a power meter for an answer. They still had math in 1975. Instead we just got Merckx climbing Ventoux with 42 x 19 and this just perpetuated the wasted-effort hard an fantasy which still lingers.
Even if that were true, which I believe it is, that's just impossible!
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Old 08-18-14, 07:15 PM   #15
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Merckx used a 44T inner ring, didn't he?
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Old 08-18-14, 07:24 PM   #16
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Merckx used a 44T inner ring, didn't he?
That, too, would be impossible, true or not. (I can barely make it up southern Indiana hills with 30/32 gearing - 559 wheels).
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Old 08-18-14, 07:55 PM   #17
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Cross chaining is really about the chain angle, exiting off the cogs or entering onto them. The tooth profiles, the chain design and the chain stay length all contribute. Depending on these variables some cases might run smoothly for the same chain angle that another system might tend to be rough or want to jump. The additional aspect is with a double or triple ring the chain can catch the inside of the larger ring when to smaller/est rear cogs. Of course this isn't a possibility with a single ring. Andy.
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Old 08-18-14, 08:25 PM   #18
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People get worked up over cross chaining like it's something terrible, but it's not. Discounting the issue of chainring rub when using the ninner ring with outer rear sprockets, everything else is a matter of degree.

Obviously, a single chainring can only align perfectly with only a single sprocket. So all but two combiantions (on a 2x?) are aligned or close. Then they get steadily worse as you move away from the center of the cassette.

If you figure that the single ring is placed in the middle of what would have been a pair (or the middle position of a triple), then the "cross chain" issue is only worse by 3.5mm or less than one rear shift..

BTW- all my bikes are set up so I can use any combination, and chainrings and cassettes are chosen so most of my riding is in the aligned combinations on either side of the cassette's center. This means I spend less time in poorly aligned combinations, but I do use whatever gear is right for conditions without obsessing over the cross chain issue.
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Old 08-19-14, 02:07 PM   #19
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Merckx used a 44T inner ring, didn't he?
53 x 49 for Paris Roubaix, 53 x 44/46 for the Ardennes, and his "mountain set-up" was 52/53 x 42, because that's what real men do.

I still don't understand why the slide rule wasn't broken out and never used to solve "if we can spin up a 9% slope at 100rpm in 34 x 27 and generate far more watts than grinding 55rpm in 42 x 19, then what the hell are we doing bolting on these giant gears?"
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Old 08-19-14, 02:13 PM   #20
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53 x 49 for Paris Roubaix, 53 x 44/46 for the Ardennes, and his "mountain set-up" was 52/53 x 42, because that's what real men do.

I still don't understand why the slide rule wasn't broken out and never used to solve "if we can spin up a 9% slope at 100rpm in 34 x 27 and generate far more watts than grinding 55rpm in 42 x 19, then what the hell are we doing bolting on these giant gears?"
it's a big IF, IME.
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Old 08-19-14, 02:18 PM   #21
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it's a big IF, IME.
34x27 @ 100 rpm is 10 mph. 150lb rider and that'd be about 350W.

Quite doable for a pro.
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Old 08-19-14, 02:33 PM   #22
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34x27 @ 100 rpm is 10 mph. 150lb rider and that'd be about 350W.

Quite doable for a pro.
i wasn't referring to the gradient and speed or wattage necessary, it was the "FAR MORE" stuff. IOW, the comparison was iffy, IME.
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Old 08-19-14, 03:15 PM   #23
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Has anyone thought of using 2 x 5? Think of it. No cross chaining. Wide range of gears. Heck you could shift it with downtube shifters.
And then you can make the sprockets and chain rings thicker, and use a more rational width chain, and use a Suntour derailleur set. But still have cross chain issues, but eight (or seven) speeds ought to be enough. We can still call it a "ten speed" though. Back to the future. It's what I run on my 30-ish year old Univega.

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Old 08-19-14, 05:20 PM   #24
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And then you can make the sprockets and chain rings thicker, and use a more rational width chain, and use a Suntour derailleur set. But still have cross chain issues, but eight (or seven) speeds ought to be enough. We can still call it a "ten speed" though. Back to the future. It's what I run on my 30-ish year old Univega.

-mr. bill
I don't have much issue with the use of all ten on my early 70's bike boom bikes. 18 inch chainstays keeps the chainlines reasonable.

And I actually do use a 42/52 and 13-19 freewheel. I live in flatlandia so its perfect gearing for my type of riding.
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Old 08-19-14, 06:11 PM   #25
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The total gear range available from a MTB 3x8 or 9 setup is 42:11 top to 22:32 bottom or maybe more. That's 5.5:1 or more from top to bottom, and it comes with nice double-step shifting. The 2x10 setups will get you the range but the shift on the front seems tremendously huge. The giant SRAM cassette is 10-42 which is obviously 4.2:1. So the range still isn't there. (And have you seen what it costs?)

I'm certain that 8x11-32 could be reasonable for my own commute. More gears would be ok but not required. It would not be if I want the bike to have more purpose, like tolerating a bad day with my heart condition, or going offroad, or towing the trailer I just got, or doing wheelies.
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