clarenancy

Greetings

I've been lurking here for years, benefiting from the knowledge in the forums.

Now I have an issue that maybe has been addressed but maybe not as specifically as I'd like.

I was given an old 1981 mixte as a reward for some volunteer mural painting I did. It road fine when I got her although I didn't ride her long before I dismantled her, stripped her down, powder coated her and reassembled with some new, new old components.

All went well except for my headset. We did not attempt to alter/remove the headset parts from the frame in our disassembly.

When my husband and I went to put her back together, it didn't all seem to fit as it did when we took her apart. Being new at this, I was very careful to document the breakdown of parts and pieces. Following my notes and pictures left a gap above the crown race that I'm sure wasn't there before. I even had to remove a few of the spacers at the top. I tried a number of configurations to get a good smooth turn - free bearings, caged bearings, etc... Finally, I got a good feel for the turn, but to accomplish that I had to replace the original seal at the crown race with a neoprene o ring. Otherwise the bearings would be exposed.

So she road fine for a week or so and I thought I was done with this issue, but now I have looseness, shakiness, stiffness.

Is it possible that the powder coat man, or me (inadvertently) misaligned my headset parts? Maybe there were wrong to begin with and I didn't notice because I only test road it briefly. How would I detect a misalignment? How would I fix it? Is there another explanation for my problem?


Thanks in advance!

bikemig 

You don't want to ride a bike with a loose headset as that can wallow out the headtube as well as destroy the headset. Given that the bike "rode fine" for a week or so and now you have shakiness, the headset may well have slipped out of adjustment. The basic idea is that you want to lock together the parts on the top of the headset that have flats on them so that the headset turns freely but there is no play. I'd try to adjust it again properly and see what happens.

clarenancy

Well, I didn't ride it for a week or so. I rode it around the block or so before I took it home It was free, after all! I went through all the gears and didn't notice any problems.

And then I took it on a 10 mile ride. Just long enough for me to decide I wanted swept back bars instead of down turned bars, Oh and a new seat.

Dave Cutter

Peugeot's are pretty bicycles. You made a nice selection. I really like the paint too. A nice looking bicycle.

A LBS could easily readjust and/fix your headset problem. But why not stop at the library and borrow an older bicycle repair book. Look for a manual originally published before 1985 like "Glenn's" which has been reprinted. It will detail the way to reassemble and adjust the headset of your beautiful vintage Peugeot.

BTW thanks for sharing the pic.

HillRider

Does the headset have "caged" bearing balls, i.e. are the balls in a retainer ring? If so, I expect you installed one or both of the bearing sets upside down.

Andrew R Stewart 

Agreed, this was the first thing I thought of. Balls of a larger diameter will do the same, You must use the OEM size. BTW this could be a French speced Peugeot. IF SO the replacing the headset will prove to be challenging as not too many are available in a French dimensional spec these days. So too with the stem. An English, 22.2mm, stem might just fit in the steerer but could seize in place soon. Ask me how I know that... Andy.

jyl

I agree, most likely bearings are wrong size or (if caged) upside down or got interchanged between upper and lower.

Also, between the upper adjustable race and the locknut, there should be a spacer that is keyed (fits with notch or flat on fork steerer tube, so that spacer won't rotate).

FYI, Peugeots of that vintage typically had French threads and dimensions for various parts, including fork steerer threads, stem diameter, and handlebar clamp diameter. French Bicycles

clarenancy

Thanks y'all And thanks for the kind comments on my bike. It is a model marketed for Canada and the US so I don't think I'll have French spec issues.

Dave, I've been referring to Sheldon Brown and my husband's Zinn & the Art of Road Bike Maintenance. I will see if the library has Glenn's book. I also took it to the Schwinn guy who works at the local bike co-op. I will confess that I am much more mechanically inclined than the average woman. (The last time I trusted the bike mechanic over my own instincts I had to redo the cabling and indicator spindle on my 3 speed Hercules). First we tried loose bearings, then I switched to caged bearings. Both large and small. All combinations that seemed to fit.

At this point, the top bearings are large and loose. The bottom bearings are small and caged. They seem to fit nicely, and it rode okay for a few weeks before it started to degrade again. I will try turning the bottom caged bearings.

But...

JYL, when I decided that I needed assistance and went to the bike coop, I'm horrified to say, the Schwinn mechanic tossed my spacers with the slits AND the seal!! He said I didn't need them. (See how my relationships with mechanics never ends well for me?) In fact, I couldn't get the top to thread sufficiently because there was not enough thread exposed with the spacers inserted. Sigh That's why I'm wondering about whether the actual parts - top race and crown race - may not be seated properly? Are these parts threaded in or tapped in? Even as tight as I can get it (too tight) the space above the crown race is too big. Bigger than I recall it being when I dismantled it. Big enough that bearings dropped out when there were lose ones in there.

Should I just get a new headset and pay the LBS? I kind of live in a bike mechanic desert. Everyone says they know how to deal with my issues but it is never really the case.

jyl

The 1970s and earlier Peugeots used French sizes even if they were sold in North America.

It sounds like the bearings in the upper race are too large, so the adjustable race can't fit properly. Can you try using smaller balls? Try using balls the same size as used in the lower race.

It also sounds like the locknut may be bottoming out on the end of the steerer, because of the missing spacer.

If you have a decent co-op, you can probably find replacement spacers in their bins of used stuff. Measure the diameter you need and go bin-diving. A spacer with a tab (goes with a fork steerer with a notch) can work on a fork steerer with a flat, you might have to file down the tab a bit. For that matter, you might find a set of caged balls of the appropriate size. If you can't find the spacers, email me (I'll send you a PM) because the co-op bins here have plenty of those bits, the stamp to mail it to you will probably cost more than the part.

The upper and lower races are press fit into the top and bottom of the head tube. You can remove the fork, then put a piece of wood on the races and hit the wood firmly with a hammer just to make sure they are fully inserted, but they probably are.

I wouldn't get a new headset. There's no reason your existing headset can't work. Anyway the new headset's adjustable race may not thread onto your fork steerer.

I also wouldn't resort to the LBS. You are plenty mechanical enough to do this, and living in a bike mechanic desert, it is worth acquiring more bike repair skills.

By the way, you should know the sources for reproduction decals. That bike should proudly wear its Peugeot colors!
Velocals Bicycle Restoration decals
CYCLOMONDO - BICYCLE RESTORATION DECALS

JohnDThompson 

Peugeots -- even those destined for the North American market -- usually had metric thread steer tubes and bottom brackets and metric diameter frame tubing well into the 1980s.

clarenancy

I also wouldn't resort to the LBS. You are plenty mechanical enough to do this, and living in a bike mechanic desert, it is worth acquiring more bike repair skills.

By the way, you should know the sources for reproduction decals. That bike should proudly wear its Peugeot colors!
Velocals Bicycle Restoration decals
CYCLOMONDO - BICYCLE RESTORATION DECALS[/QUOTE]

Thanks a ton, JYL!

The bearing sizes I'm using are what was there when I took it apart. But, it has occurred to me that I have no reason to believe that it was correct when I got her. Her history is a mystery The thought crossed my mind the the top race may not match the bottom race.

I will try the smaller bearings. Sadly, I must wait until Sunday to go to the coop. They are only open twice a week.

You mentioned you can find the spacers at your co-op. What about the seal that goes above the crown race and the bearings? I'm lacking that too. Its a small black plastic gasket. It is depicted here on Sheldon's page exactly where I've described it. Servicing Bicycle Headsets

I'm including a photo. Ignore the black band above the bottom race. But notice the gap below the race. That is where the o ring substitutes for the seal. And that is as narrow as I can get that gap even if the o ring were not there.

Clare

Rocky Gravol

A couple of other threads on this subject.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...loosening.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...ring-like.html

So for future reference anyone else reading this,
if you are taking apart a Peugeot headset be aware of the lock ring spacer,
in the head set. It looks like the item in the photo below with all the holes in it.
It is a cast part, and is very fragile.



I wasn't, I didn't know what I was doing, and mine ended up looking like this one.
I also believe that little tab can break off, allowing the headset to loosen.

Andrew R Stewart 

Thanks a ton, JYL!

The bearing sizes I'm using are what was there when I took it apart. But, it has occurred to me that I have no reason to believe that it was correct when I got her. Her history is a mystery The thought crossed my mind the the top race may not match the bottom race.

I will try the smaller bearings. Sadly, I must wait until Sunday to go to the coop. They are only open twice a week.

You mentioned you can find the spacers at your co-op. What about the seal that goes above the crown race and the bearings? I'm lacking that too. Its a small black plastic gasket. It is depicted here on Sheldon's page exactly where I've described it. Servicing Bicycle Headsets

I'm including a photo. Ignore the black band above the bottom race. But notice the gap below the race. That is where the o ring substitutes for the seal. And that is as narrow as I can get that gap even if the o ring were not there.

Clare

[/QUOTE]

If the brakes (Weinmann 999 I believe) are OE then the headset likely isn't stock. Do you know the year of the bike? If it's lugged then it's likely pre 1980. The photo is so poor it's hard to really see much detail. A shot of the fork out of the frame with the balls next to the crown race might suggest more. That lower stack sure looks wrong to my eyes. The crown race's bottom surface should nestle up to the cup's lip. There shouldn't be a vertical gap. I seriously question the lower stack's set up. Possibilities are too large ball diameters, a flipped retainer (but this usually only creates a small amount of fit shift), unlikely but not unknown would be a roller bearing headset with balls subbed.

Most traditional Peugeot low cost headsets of the late 1970s and early 1980s used 5/32" balls. What diameter are the ones in the bike now? The OP mentioned that the upper and lower balls were of two different diameters and that the uppers were larger. This is quite surprising. There are a few headsets that have larger lower balls (Ritchey comes to mind) but none that are of the vintage that the bike likely is.

All these point to a seriously miss assembled headset. Perhaps a trip to a LBS that's been around for 40 years (or one with an old guy at it) is in order. Andy.

SBinNYC

Peugeot's from that era usually used headsets with loose balls. There was a Peugeot headset that used 26-5/32" balls in each race. It also possible they used a Stronglight P3 headset. These headsets used 25-5/32" balls in each race. There may be marking on the headset that identify the manufacturer and model. This would permit nailing what the manufacturer expected to be used.

clarenancy

The bike had the original model number taped to the underside. 1982 PH 19.

Andy, The brakes you see in the photo are replacement Dia Comps my husband bought for me. The old ones were weinmanns but weathered, stiff and ugly. That doesn't mean my headset parts aren't mismatched.

I didn't keep the pictures I took as I was breaking her down. But I swear I did not have that vertical gap at that time. That's what make me wonder if the powder coater or I somehow dislodged the parts.

I don't know the exact bearing sizes. I'm including a photo. When I first put her back together I used the old bearings. It was only after I was losing them that I switched to the smaller caged at the bottom.



Again, the large ones were in the top and the small ones were in the bottom.

And, SBinNYC, they were all loose when I took it apart. The o ring is there as much to close/bridge that gap as anything else. In other words, if I took the o ring out and put the seal back in I would not get that race any further up in the cup.

I'm going to flip the bearing cage this evening and see what that does. My spare bike is in disrepair too - a straight forward fix but a wait on parts And I am a daily commuter.

clarenancy

Guys, I'm flipping the cage ring and looking at my husband's bike and realizing that maybe Mr. Powder Coat man put my bottom on the top and my top on the bottom.

The threaded adjustable race on the top fits so nicely on the bottom and my artists eye tells me the crown race would slide nicely into the cup that is now on the top.

How do I remove these parts and place them on the correct orientation?

SBinNYC

Here's an image of how the Stronglight headset should go in. The bottom member (crown race) on figure is a cone. It goes on the fork. The next piece up (bottom frame race) is a cup. The top frame race is a cone. The knurled screw race is a cup. Before you try to remove the races that are press fit into the fork and frame - examine whether they are cups or cones. N.B. the cup will have a larger diameter than its cone.

Your photos are not very clear. A close up of each race separately might help.

clarenancy

I found a thread on how to tap out the races. LOVE this forum.

Thanks for the graphic, SB! Mine does not have the toothed locking washer but everything else is quite similar.

My husband and I noticed that on his bike (similar vintage peugeot) the bottom frame race was slightly larger and more cupped while the top one was a little shallower since the knurled threaded race capped over it.

Mine was exactly opposite. I didn't remove the races when I took the bike to Mr. Powder Coater. And I didn't realize that he had removed them but he must have because, like I said above, that gap was not there at the bottom race when I took the bike apart and stripped the paint.

SO, we gently tapped out and reversed the races. Everything seems to fit properly. The stem turns smoothly and freely. The fork doesn't fit up as tight as it should but then it wouldn't because I'm using the o ring because I'm still lacking the seal for the bottom. And the spacers for the top.


It's too late and dark out to give it a good test ride but I'll risk it in the morning and see how she does.

This maybe another success for the Back Porch Bike Shop. And I didn't even break a nail.

But, it's yet another bad experience with a paid professional who let me down. C'est la vie. C'est la guerre.


Thanks Gentlemen You've been a great help.

I'll report on my ride tomorrow!

Clare

jyl

Congratulations! I'm raising a beer to you!

clarenancy

JYL, Thanks! I may still hit you up for the spacers and a seal if my co-op doesn't have any suitable.

I have an 8 mile commute in the morning. I'm feeling good about the fix. Wish me luck I'll let you know.

See, it's those lousy professionals that compel me to take care of myself. Vive l'indépendance! With a little help from my friends

Andrew R Stewart 

Well more info is good. That some one else then the Op reinstalled the headset and a photo of what looks to be a 5/32" and a 1/4" ball fills in the story. Reversing the cups on the head tube could certainly explain some of the race to cup vertical gap shown before. The upper cup (seemingly on the lower end of the head tube) often has a shallower depth. But the 1/4" ball just seems so wrong. Some one could sub different ball diameters and test the fit and spin of the fork to determine the correct size ball. One of the problems with trouble shooting over the interweb is that one can't touch, feel, see the item and we have to take what has been posted as correct. I hope the Op figures this out. Andy.

clarenancy

Absolutely, Andrew. The internet has it's limits. But, honestly, I've gotten more and better info through the web than I get locally with hands on.

So I rode in to work this morning and there is still a trace of a wobble when I pull my front brakes. It's distinctly a front to back wobble at the top of the headset. I'm saying I either need to tighten the knurled/adjustable threaded race a little more or install those spacers (or both). There were two in there originally. Something like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Wald-Keyed-Hea...280467&sr=1-51

SBinNYC

There cannot be any wobble in the headset. If there is, you should trace its source. If it's the cups or cones within the frame, then they were not properly installed. If it's the cups/cones against each other (look at both the bottom and top), then it's either the adjustment or you are using the wrong size balls.

You should examine the top lock nut. You will note that the ID is smaller at the top than at the bottom. If a sufficient number of spacers are not between it and the (adjustable) knurled screwed race, the top lock nut will not press against the knurled screwed race. This will allow the knurled screwed race to loosen with time.

The keyed spacer serves another purpose. If it were not there, then tightening the top lock nut will also tighten the knurled screwed race. The keyed spacer cannot turn. This will allow you to tighten the top lock nut without also tightening the knurled screwed race.

Finally, use a drill gauge to measure a ball size. It's less prone to operator error than a ruler.

greg3rd48 

I also have a recently powder coated Peugeot, a U08 and I have the applicable decals from VeloCals. Once I apply the decals to the powder coated frame should I but another coating of clear coat over those areas or just leave it as is without the additional clear coat?

jyl

I left my decals uncoated. They seem tough enough.