mconlonx

I believe you vastly overestimate the intelligence of the general bike-riding public, who believe that you should never touch the front brake at all for fear of "going over the bars." To the point where manufacturers build in spring-loaded "modulators." Now give the newb rider a 200mm hyd front brake and watch what happens in a panic situation where they "grab a handful of brake"...

Not to mention the same kind of bozos who wait for metal on metal in their car before having even an inkling that maybe, just maybe they should get their brakes serviced. And the DIY mechanic who puts Shimano brake fluid in his Avid brakes. Or runs Avid brakes to begin with...

1) They are not more trouble free. In fact, considering recalls and various quality issues, they can be very troublesome. Cables and housing stump some; hydraulics are another category removed from simple mechanics.
2) Predictable can be good or bad...
3) Brakes are still limited by tire traction and on skinny tires on a road bike, and more power can sometimes not be a good thing.

Some hydraulic brakes require more attention to keep them working at peak efficiency; some don't.

Bandera

If the latest side-pull caliper brakes "are powerful, fade resistant and provide excellent feel" why bother changing to a design that will require a heavier fork design and a complicated hydraulic system if the brakes do what brakes are required to do? Pointless complexity and added weight with no real advantage for road riders and the end of the <20 second wheel change in racing.

You have to be kidding to propose that a hydraulic system with the requirements of bleeding & fluid changes versus a simple cable change would require less expert maintenance and specialized equipment.

I'm not buying any of it.

-Bandera

winston63 

Agreed - and frankly, I'm not sure that I see a whole lot of resistance here. It seems to me that bike manufacturers are putting disc brakes on all kinds of bikes that wouldn't have had them a few years ago.

I'm hardly dogmatic in regards to any sort of bike technology, but I do have mechanical discs on my tourer/commute bike and I find them superior to the calipers on my cross bike in just about every way, particularly when it comes to braking in very wet conditions, something that is far too common on my commute.

I can appreciate that there are disadvantages to discs and they may not be very appropriate in all circumstances. But I sure appreciate them for my winter riding.

headloss 

My personal experience is in agreement with you. Lots of PITA hydraulic systems out there, we'll see if I change my mind over the next decade but for now, the only way I'll buy hydraulic is if it comes stock on the bike.

I think it's more about design refinements than b/c hydraulics (as used on a bike) are difficult to grasp. My background is working on high pressure hydraulic systems and I'm knowledgable on the topic... yet, setting/adjusting shimano hydraulic brakes has been nothing but a headache for me to date. I'm so not a fan.

Bandera

If @headloss with his background in hydraulic systems considers disc/hydraulic "a headache" where will that leave the average shop mechanic or (shudder) the consumer?

Remember the principle of KISS? And the wisdom of "If it ain't broke....."

Being an old school 'cross racer I've ridden Right_Front, Left_Rear brakes for over 40 years, are the mfs going to accommodate that? It's easy w/ calipers & cables and I'm not about to change.

I am far from a cycling Luddite but will resist the pressure from mfgs to force a complicated, expensive and inelegant technology with no discernable benefit on me.



-Bandera

dynaryder

My first winter commuting,my V brakes packed with snow and I wound up glancing off a car. Never had an issue with discs,even riding through blizzards. Only rode through freezing rain once,will never do that again. Brakes were fine,and studded tires kept me upright,but the drivers had no idea what they were doing,and I don't need to get taken out by an idiot who thinks ABS and AWD are magic.

dynaryder

Hydros require much less regular maintenance. You don't have to make adjustments for pad wear and cable stretch. You don't have to clean/lube the cables. For street riding,good hydros only need to be bled every few years,so you're basically just swapping pads. As for bleeding,I don't consider a bleed kit a big deal. I big needle with a hose and catch container,that you're only going to use every couple of years.

BTW,I carry two pieces of specialized equipment for my bike clinic. A Pedro's cable puller,and a ratcheting clamp. Makes adjusting canti's and old centerpulls much easier.

RubeRad

Is it not simple with discs? Do R/L levers come with non-replaceable/non-swappable cables?

Bandera

"You don't have to make adjustments for pad wear and cable stretch."
I don't know what caliper system you were using but cable stretch is taken out on the install by any competent mechanic and a turn on an adjusting barrel once a year or so when doing routine cleaning has sufficed for me for decades on the road. In fact I still have the OEM brake pads on my '92 Vitus and the cables were changed every 10 years in race and club riding conditions whether they needed it or not.

Get a stop watch and change/lube cables pads vs. the same operation on discs w/ a fluid change bleed at the same service interval.
No special equipment required w/ calipers and anyone can do it and be riding while air is still bubbling out of the system elsewhere.

I'm not buying it.

-Bandera

Bandera

Got me, not likely to find out unless someone with direct experience informs us from hydraulic-land.

-Bandera

Raiden

They're swappable, it's just something you want to do in a garage or shop environment. The hoses fit into the calipers and levers with small compression fittings. Altering the hoses requires first draining and later re-filling each system with fluid. SOME levers can just be flipped from one side to another, but those are less common.

hounslow

Bicycle hydro's are simple and striaght forward to bleed, with only Avid/SRAM being a bit of a hassle.
Shimano systems can be L/R swapped without bleeding and hoses shortened in 5 minutes with nothing more than some cable cutters, some vise grips and a small hammer (although proper tools are advised). No bleeding required.

Round here we have lots of people in aerospace and car industries and we get the 'I'm an engineer I know what I'm doing'. Expert in one field is not expert in another.

PS cycocommute has brakes that don't work or doesn't know how to set them up correctly, as he is going against basically the rest of the cycling world with his opinions/statements.

cyccommute 

What have I said that makes you think that my brakes...rim or hub mounted disc...don't work? Or that I don't know how to set them up? I have several disc systems and several rim systems. They all work equally well. If anything, my rim brakes work better than the vast majority of brakes of any flavor that I see coming into the local co-op where I teach people how to work on their bikes...including their disc brakes.

My issues with hub mounted discs isn't that they are ineffective but that they are unnecessary and certainly not so much better than a properly installed and maintained rim brake that I feel the need to run out and replace the rim brakes tomorrow.

Rim brakes have a few warts but hub mounted discs have many more.

headloss 

Yes, but keep the full context that I gave. I blame the design, not the concept... the struggle with hydraulic disc brakes are growing pains while the major manufacturers work out the kinks. I suspect that I'll warm up to them with newer, more refined, models as they become more common. I think a big part of the problem isn't the brake system itself, but cheaply made frames with poor tolerances and alignment. None the less, my experience with disc brakes so far have been negative. I only pointed out my background to emphasize the point that I do in fact know what I'm doing and it isn't a matter of user/setup error.

Don't make overly general statements, they'll come back to bite you. I can think of several examples that require removing the entire reservoir cover, as opposed to just a convenient little vent port. I find that venting is usually sufficient in a pinch, as opposed to a full bleed, but the headache is the same. God forbid that anyone need to bleed their brakes while on a long ride... hydraulic discs are great if you bring the bike back to the home/shop at the end of every ride, which again supports the idea that they are great for mountain biking but not so much road riding (and especially not good for touring).

rydabent

bandera

But disc brakes are far more elegant that rim brakes. They do not wear out a vital part of the bike, the rim.

An analogy he is like the multi function printer on my desk. It is a copier, printer and scanner. If the power supply doesnt work, I have 3 machines that dont work. Rim brakes too are multi function, it is a wheel and a brake. If the wheel is broken again the whole bike is useless.

There is alway resistance to change. Click shifting, and clipless pedals being a couple. Now it is disc brakes. A good percentage of people alway resist change away from the familiar.

Bandera

Elegant? Hideous to my eye, choose the more aesthetic object:



In >40 years I have never worn out a bike rim from braking, it's a Straw Man argument.
If I ever did I'd re-lace it as I would replace any other component that was at the end of it's service life.

I was an early adopter of indexed shifting, clipless pedals, cycle computers and high performance clinchers. Disc brakes are not in the same class of useful new technology. For me disc road brakes are an answer to a question that I never asked: heavy, ugly, expensive and a maintenance hog.

Other than that......

-Bandera

HillRider

You do have this paranoia about wearing out rims don't you? How many rims have you actually worn out from brake track abrasion and how often has it stranded you? From your postings it seems like it must have happened to you every two months.

cruiserhead

you really have to look at what is actually out there now.
I think it's really clean and elegant, and it's only going to get better.

Rim wear may not be a concern for the recreational rider but I think it's a valid argument in carbon wheels to keep the braking surface seperate from the rim. It carries key advantages in this regard.

Wear may not be a factor in alloy rims, but discs do allow for lighter weight rims, which keeps the rotating mass centralized. Something racing wheels have been focused on.

In other performance and safety respects, disc just works better than rim brakes.
Despite anecdotal arguments against, the facts bear out the advantages.

I thought road disc was pointless too until I used it.

Far greater control from far greater modulation.
centralized weight
The only added weight are the rotors. The rest of the system is within grams of a high end caliper brake.
Benefits are huge in any kind of incliment weather
Racing benefits are also huge

Hydraulic systems are simple. One can argue this, but cable disc is widely available if one is uncomfortable with hydro.
MTB is really the pioneer in disc brakes, and these systems are, in fact, reliable.

The avg rider will not mess with cable brakes anyway, so either way, they will give it to a shop.
DIY riders will learn how to bleed hydro systems, and it's not hard to do, just different.

It's really too clear cut, and the industry is really pushing this from the bottom up and top down, so all the arguments are irrelevant.

Those that don't agree, can ride caliper systems for many many years. Both platforms will be around, nothing is disappearing any time soon.

reddog3

QUOTE=rydabent;17302697]bandera

But disc brakes are far more elegant that rim brakes. They do not wear out a vital part of the bike, the rim.

An analogy he is like the multi function printer on my desk. It is a copier, printer and scanner. If the power supply doesnt work, I have 3 machines that dont work. Rim brakes too are multi function, it is a wheel and a brake. If the wheel is broken again the whole bike is useless.

There is alway resistance to change. Click shifting, and clipless pedals being a couple. Now it is disc brakes. A good percentage of people alway resist change away from the familiar.[/QUOTE]

Multi-function? As far as I know rim brakes only have one function- that's to stop the bike. In case you didn't know, disc brakes rely more on the wheel to stop the bike than rim brakes do. The force must be transferred from the rotor- to the hub- to the spokes- to the rim- to the tire- to the road, before the bike will stop. Rim brakes do the same, but in reverse, so the loads on the parts are less. Discs are more reliant on the wheel as a whole than rim brakes are. Specific lacing patterns are required for discs, and generally more spokes are required. (Example- you can't run a disc on a 20 spoke radial laced wheel.) Wheel condition is also more important for discs. I've seen many, many wheels in such bad shape that the application of a disc brake would collapse the wheel, whereas it still stops with rim brakes.

I don't know why you continue to argue "for discs." Both braking systems are acceptable and viable in many applications. You maintain that discs are the only way to go. Pretty closed minded! Oh wait- you ride a bent. You probably think "bents" are the only way to go? Give it a rest will ya? No one cares!

Bandera

From my perspective riding and racing bikes that have now become "Classic & Vintage" by attrition and sought for in yard sales, c-list and _bey as Grail Objects I can imagine this conversation in future years regarding a 2014/15 bike:

Guy A: "Wow, it's a Pinnalized-Specarello Team Shy replica in great shape!"

Guy B: "Yeah, too bad it can't be ridden since the batteries and brake fluid aren't available anymore."

Guy A: "Let's turn it into a Fixie!"

-Bandera Out

cruiserhead

People have that same conversation right now, and turn cv bikes into fixies.

batteries and mineral oil won't be available in the future?

Joe Minton

Motorcycles have had disc brakes for more than 40 years. They are reliable and simple in practice. There are millions of them and many, many millions more cars fitted with hydraulic discs. Hydraulic disc brakes have proven themselves in very many ways and are the standard for practical use.

Bicycle discs have been long in coming but they are here and they will prevail.

Automotive disc brakes are about the weight of the old drums were, perhaps a bit lighter but no one cares very much. After all, the things weigh a ton-and-a-half anyway, and -- all one has to do is push on the throttle to make-up for any miniscule weight increase. You know: --- car engines make Horsepower we make Watts ;o)
Bicycle disc brakes are mostly heavier than rim brakes. Weight is more of an issue with bikes. However, even that concern is diminishing.

Automotive and motorcycle hydraulic systems seldom or rarely need bleeding. Most are never bled and yet they remain reliable. If bicycle hydraulics need bleeding in use, then, there is something wrong that needs to be addressed.

There must be no air in the system, including the reservoir. Motorcycle brake systems accomplish this by fitting a sealed bellows under the cap of the reservoir so that the entire system can remain air-free. Like with motorcycles, one must be able to invert a bicycle without introducing air into the brake master cylinder, lines or calipers. There is no excuse, at any level, for things being otherwise.

Joe

cyccommute 

Eye of the beholder. Personally, I find hub mounted discs to be rather ugly, clunky and poorly designed. The location of the calipers for both front and rear are just wrong. Some manufacturers have located the rear brake onto the chainstay which allows for easier rack and fender mounting on utility bikes but not all. And the fork mount location is simply wrong. Mounting it behind the left fork blade causes the wheel to want to eject from the fork tips. You have to have wheel retention to prevent wheel ejection. If the caliper were mounted on front of the fork blade, the physics are such that the wheel would be forced up into the tips rather then out of the fork. But that causes other problems with aerodynamics and aesthetics.

You are also taking a non-dished wheel and adding a significant amount of dish to it. You only have 100mm to work with on a front wheel.

...And, as many people have pointed out to you, the multifunctionality of a rim brake wheel isn't that big a deal.

News flash: You can still break a disc wheel. Additionally, even with the braking track "broken", bikes usually have a second wheel that can do braking duty. It's not as big a deal as you make it out to be. I can think of about a dozen other things that can render a bike "useless" for which you don't have ready spares out in the field.

Some people do. Others resist change for the sake of change. Hub mounted disc brakes fall into the latter category.

cyccommute 

Although Dynaryder will object, I will reiterate this again...Bicycles have had disc brakes since, well, forever. The caliper brake was invented in 1876...2 years before the safety cycle. Hub mounted disc brakes are relatively new for bicycles and are not as great an improvement as they were for motorcycles and automobiles.

The weight of a drum brake on cars and motorcycles isn't the major problem with them, although it is something of an issue. The lack of heat transfer is far more problematic. Overheating of drum brakes causes the brakes to fail. We get regular demonstrations of the failure of drum brakes here in Colorado. Many of our highways have ramps built especially so that trucks that have overheated their brakes can drive off the road. I work where I-70 flattens out and we regularly smell the burning of truck brakes. We also see trucks actually on fire on occasion.

3alarmer 

.
...I find my resistance to the idea of disc brakes on a bicycle increases exponentially with the number of threads on BF praising the idea beyond all reason.