Spoke lengths with 16mm nipples
#1
South Carolina Ed
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 3,889
Bikes: Holdsworth custom, Macario Pro, Ciocc San Cristobal, Viner Nemo, Cyfac Le Mythique, Giant TCR, Tommasso Mondial, Cyfac Etoile
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
138 Posts
Spoke lengths with 16mm nipples
I'm trying to figure out what lengths I need for older (silver) Campy 10spd hubs, Sun SL1 rims, 3x 14-15-14 double butted.
I measured the ERD to be 565mm between the tops of the nipple flats + 2 x 16mm for the nipples = 597mm
I used SPOCALC with a surrogate 597mm rim because it lacked and entry for the Sun SL1's. It calculated Front = 292.5mm, Left Rear (non-drive)= 291.9, Right Rear (drive) = 289.8.
I assume SPOCALC assumes use of 12mm nipples. I spun 12mm and 16mm nipples onto some spokes and it appears that the internal threaded length of the 16mm nipples is only 1mm longer than the 12mm nipples.
So should I use
Front = 292.5 rounded down to 292 minus the 1mm extra internal threaded length of a 16mm nipple = 291mm?
Left Rear (non-drive) = 291.9 rounded down to 291 minus the 1mm = 290mm?
Right Rear (drive) = 289.8 rounded down to 289 minus the 1mm = 288mm?
Thanks, Ed
I measured the ERD to be 565mm between the tops of the nipple flats + 2 x 16mm for the nipples = 597mm
I used SPOCALC with a surrogate 597mm rim because it lacked and entry for the Sun SL1's. It calculated Front = 292.5mm, Left Rear (non-drive)= 291.9, Right Rear (drive) = 289.8.
I assume SPOCALC assumes use of 12mm nipples. I spun 12mm and 16mm nipples onto some spokes and it appears that the internal threaded length of the 16mm nipples is only 1mm longer than the 12mm nipples.
So should I use
Front = 292.5 rounded down to 292 minus the 1mm extra internal threaded length of a 16mm nipple = 291mm?
Left Rear (non-drive) = 291.9 rounded down to 291 minus the 1mm = 290mm?
Right Rear (drive) = 289.8 rounded down to 289 minus the 1mm = 288mm?
Thanks, Ed
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep South
Posts: 1,335
Bikes: Cannondale SR's and ST's from the '80's
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 46 Times
in
20 Posts
I would not use shorter spokes due to longer nipples.
The strongest point of spoke/nipple/rim system is in the nipple head itself.
The spoke end should at least make it to the bottom of the cross slot when properly tensioned.
Much shorter than that and you risk breakage of the nipple at the base of the head.
I have had that happen...........
The strongest point of spoke/nipple/rim system is in the nipple head itself.
The spoke end should at least make it to the bottom of the cross slot when properly tensioned.
Much shorter than that and you risk breakage of the nipple at the base of the head.
I have had that happen...........
Last edited by Ronno6; 11-19-14 at 09:35 AM.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,716
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5788 Post(s)
Liked 2,580 Times
in
1,430 Posts
The key issue in nipple length isn't the overall length of the nipple, it's the length of the thread within the nipple and how it compares with the spoke's thread length. If the two are the same, the spoke will top out at the top of the nipple. If the nipple thread is longer the spoke can't reach the top, and if the nipple thread is shorter it allows for some overrun beyond the top of the nipple.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#4
South Carolina Ed
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 3,889
Bikes: Holdsworth custom, Macario Pro, Ciocc San Cristobal, Viner Nemo, Cyfac Le Mythique, Giant TCR, Tommasso Mondial, Cyfac Etoile
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
138 Posts
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding. If you measured to the tops of the nipples, why would you add the nipple length? Take some time to think about and get it straight in you head before reading on.
The key issue in nipple length isn't the overall length of the nipple, it's the length of the thread within the nipple and how it compares with the spoke's thread length. If the two are the same, the spoke will top out at the top of the nipple. If the nipple thread is longer the spoke can't reach the top, and if the nipple thread is shorter it allows for some overrun beyond the top of the nipple.
The key issue in nipple length isn't the overall length of the nipple, it's the length of the thread within the nipple and how it compares with the spoke's thread length. If the two are the same, the spoke will top out at the top of the nipple. If the nipple thread is longer the spoke can't reach the top, and if the nipple thread is shorter it allows for some overrun beyond the top of the nipple.
I'm looking for advice on how to adjust the SPOCALC calculated spoke lengths for the 16mm nipples.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,716
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5788 Post(s)
Liked 2,580 Times
in
1,430 Posts
This is how I understood it to be and why I posted. What I'm calling the "tops of the nipples" is the start of the wrench flats nearest the rim center. Adding 2 x 16mm nipple lengths to the distance from top to top across the rim is the ERD"
I'm looking for advice on how to adjust the SPOCALC calculated spoke lengths for the 16mm nipples.
I'm looking for advice on how to adjust the SPOCALC calculated spoke lengths for the 16mm nipples.
1- the spoke has to end at the top (head end) of the nipple. Most consider the ideal length to be such that spoke ends 1mm short of the top, or about the depth of the screwdriver slot.
2- spoke calculators (most) give you a spoke length which brings the ends to the ERD entered, meaning that the ERD is the diameter of the circle of spoke tips.
3- as for the effect of nipple length, read the 2nd paragraph of my prior post.
I suggest you draw a sketch to help you get it all straight in your head, or re-read the supporting text for the spoke calculator you plan to use. You might also visit some sites on wheelbuilding and read about calculating ERD.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep South
Posts: 1,335
Bikes: Cannondale SR's and ST's from the '80's
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 46 Times
in
20 Posts
I understand the OP's method and logic as far as ERD measurement is concerned, just have never seen it expressed that that manner.
I have seen the Swift SL1 rims listed with an ERD of 595mm so he is not far off.
I generally take a couple of broken spokes (at the J-bend) of known length and thread onto the nipple to bottom of slot,
then insert into opposing holes pointing toward each other and measure the gap using a spoke ruler. Add gap to spoke lengths for an accurate ERD.
I have seen the Swift SL1 rims listed with an ERD of 595mm so he is not far off.
I generally take a couple of broken spokes (at the J-bend) of known length and thread onto the nipple to bottom of slot,
then insert into opposing holes pointing toward each other and measure the gap using a spoke ruler. Add gap to spoke lengths for an accurate ERD.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,716
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5788 Post(s)
Liked 2,580 Times
in
1,430 Posts
I understand the OP's method and logic as far as ERD measurement is concerned, just have never seen it expressed that that manner.
I have seen the Swift SL1 rims listed with an ERD of 595mm so he is not far off.
I generally take a couple of broken spokes (at the J-bend) of known length and thread onto the nipple to bottom of slot,
then insert into opposing holes pointing toward each other and measure the gap using a spoke ruler. Add gap to spoke lengths for an accurate ERD.
I have seen the Swift SL1 rims listed with an ERD of 595mm so he is not far off.
I generally take a couple of broken spokes (at the J-bend) of known length and thread onto the nipple to bottom of slot,
then insert into opposing holes pointing toward each other and measure the gap using a spoke ruler. Add gap to spoke lengths for an accurate ERD.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#8
Senior member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,118
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 658 Times
in
371 Posts
Some 16mm nipples have a deep enough skirt so the threads won't bottom out before the tip of the spoke is through the nipple, but many do not. When this is the case, you should not adjust with shorter spokes, as this leaves the nipple head unsupported and risks shearing the heads off.
I like to build with 16mm nipples in some applications, but I'm equipped to roll 13mm of thread on the spokes so they don't bottom out. If you have not ordered your spokes yet, and you really want or need to use 16mm nipples, see if you can find someone to roll 13mm of thread onto them.
If it comes down to it, I could help you with that.
I like to build with 16mm nipples in some applications, but I'm equipped to roll 13mm of thread on the spokes so they don't bottom out. If you have not ordered your spokes yet, and you really want or need to use 16mm nipples, see if you can find someone to roll 13mm of thread onto them.
If it comes down to it, I could help you with that.
#10
South Carolina Ed
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 3,889
Bikes: Holdsworth custom, Macario Pro, Ciocc San Cristobal, Viner Nemo, Cyfac Le Mythique, Giant TCR, Tommasso Mondial, Cyfac Etoile
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
138 Posts
Thanks all for the help and confirming my analysis.
I subtracted the slot depth (mic'd at 1.36mm) from the measured ERD used in SPOCALC and subtracted 1mm from the calculated spoke lengths to account for the extra threaded length of the the 16mm nipples.
When I posted I had already ordered from 72 Custom Length 14g 2 0mm Double Butted Silver Stainless J Bend Bicycle Spokes | eBay
and had already asked if he could increase the threaded length. He replied that his machine could not do this.
I subtracted the slot depth (mic'd at 1.36mm) from the measured ERD used in SPOCALC and subtracted 1mm from the calculated spoke lengths to account for the extra threaded length of the the 16mm nipples.
When I posted I had already ordered from 72 Custom Length 14g 2 0mm Double Butted Silver Stainless J Bend Bicycle Spokes | eBay
and had already asked if he could increase the threaded length. He replied that his machine could not do this.
#11
Senior member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,118
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 658 Times
in
371 Posts
Thanks all for the help and confirming my analysis.
I subtracted the slot depth (mic'd at 1.36mm) from the measured ERD used in SPOCALC and subtracted 1mm from the calculated spoke lengths to account for the extra threaded length of the the 16mm nipples.
When I posted I had already ordered from 72 Custom Length 14g 2 0mm Double Butted Silver Stainless J Bend Bicycle Spokes | eBay
and had already asked if he could increase the threaded length. He replied that his machine could not do this.
I subtracted the slot depth (mic'd at 1.36mm) from the measured ERD used in SPOCALC and subtracted 1mm from the calculated spoke lengths to account for the extra threaded length of the the 16mm nipples.
When I posted I had already ordered from 72 Custom Length 14g 2 0mm Double Butted Silver Stainless J Bend Bicycle Spokes | eBay
and had already asked if he could increase the threaded length. He replied that his machine could not do this.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep South
Posts: 1,335
Bikes: Cannondale SR's and ST's from the '80's
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 46 Times
in
20 Posts
He uses Phil Wood machines.
https://philwood.com/products/tools/spokemach.php
FWIW, I have done much business with him and he is excellent.
Great customer service and great Sapim spokes.
https://philwood.com/products/tools/spokemach.php
FWIW, I have done much business with him and he is excellent.
Great customer service and great Sapim spokes.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,716
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5788 Post(s)
Liked 2,580 Times
in
1,430 Posts
FWIW, a nipple needs only 3-4mm of thread to achieve maximum engagement strength in the head. The threads in the shank don't add structural strength. They're a convenience for the builder because it's harder to start the last few spokes when the nipple doesn't have extra thread.
Based on experience, 6-8mm nipple thread length is about the right balance between (hand) building ease and tolerance for overrun with spokes threaded the typical 10mm. As I posted earlier, the builders concern isn't the length of the nipple, but the length of the thread.
Even if the thread is a bit longer, that's not a reason for shortening the spoke, because it still has to reach the head which is in the same place. All it means is reduced margin for error for spoke overrun.
Based on experience, 6-8mm nipple thread length is about the right balance between (hand) building ease and tolerance for overrun with spokes threaded the typical 10mm. As I posted earlier, the builders concern isn't the length of the nipple, but the length of the thread.
Even if the thread is a bit longer, that's not a reason for shortening the spoke, because it still has to reach the head which is in the same place. All it means is reduced margin for error for spoke overrun.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#14
Senior member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,118
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 658 Times
in
371 Posts
FWIW, a nipple needs only 3-4mm of thread to achieve maximum engagement strength in the head. The threads in the shank don't add structural strength. They're a convenience for the builder because it's harder to start the last few spokes when the nipple doesn't have extra thread.
Based on experience, 6-8mm nipple thread length is about the right balance between (hand) building ease and tolerance for overrun with spokes threaded the typical 10mm. As I posted earlier, the builders concern isn't the length of the nipple, but the length of the thread.
Even if the thread is a bit longer, that's not a reason for shortening the spoke, because it still has to reach the head which is in the same place. All it means is reduced margin for error for spoke overrun.
Based on experience, 6-8mm nipple thread length is about the right balance between (hand) building ease and tolerance for overrun with spokes threaded the typical 10mm. As I posted earlier, the builders concern isn't the length of the nipple, but the length of the thread.
Even if the thread is a bit longer, that's not a reason for shortening the spoke, because it still has to reach the head which is in the same place. All it means is reduced margin for error for spoke overrun.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,716
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5788 Post(s)
Liked 2,580 Times
in
1,430 Posts
Long nipples today exist to satisfy the needs of the women using semi-automatic machines to hand lace wheels in production facilities. These women lace upward of 40 wheels per hour and the longer nipples allows the wheel to be laced 3 turns while still slack. With shorter thread length, the wheel starts to have a bit of tension as it's being laced and that makes the job slower and harder on the fingertips.
When I can't find the right nipples, I'll set a 2mm drill, or burr up in a Dremel clamped in the vice. I fit a depth stop, and hand feed nipples to bore out 2-3 threads. It's a very fast process once you develop the touch.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
bikerbobbbb
Bicycle Mechanics
20
11-30-21 10:05 PM
dabac
Bicycle Mechanics
9
04-28-16 12:45 PM
bowlofsalad
Bicycle Mechanics
4
08-18-14 01:35 PM