ClarkinHawaii

building them in a wheelset for another person or a customer? Would you do it if they provided the rims? What steps could you take to protect yourself liability-wise? Thank you.

fietsbob

Nobody needs any where I Live , Practical sorts.

are your Liabilities Insured?

ClarkinHawaii

No, only my assets.

fietsbob

If they sue will you lose all those?

FBinNY 

I've always made all "brought to me" rim decisions on a case by case basis. Sometimes I can know by brand experience that I'll want more dough to build a rim, or have the client accept a disclaimer. Sometimes I'll simply say no dice at any price, disclaimer or not.

For example if a deep-V carbon rim is oval, (confirmed by 2 diameter measurements) I'll either explain that radial true may be impossible, or require uneven
tension, or in some cases refuse to build entirely.

So far my experience has been that there's more variation rim to rim of the same brand with carbon than with aluminum, but that may simply reflect the large number of newer to the business rim makers.

In any case, I generally make clear that I won't stand behind any rim failure on a rim that I didn't recommend and/or sell. If a buyer wants protection from something like a spoke hole crack or pull through, he has to buy the rim through me.

ClarkinHawaii

Does a disclaimer actually protect you at all; or is it more to adjust the customer's thinking?

FBinNY 

It's to establish an understanding. If I feel I need a disclaimer for legal reasons, meaning I thing the item is somehow dangerous, than I protect myself by not touching it in the first place. You cannot use a disclaimer to excuse you from your responsibility, you can only use it to clarify where responsibility lies, but if sued, it'll be the judge who determines that, not the paper.

So for me the disclaimer is to protect me from having to offer goodwill repairs on stuff that wasn't my fault, by saying up front that I won't. I've never had issues about claims, but I protect myself from unreasonable expectations by saying up front that X is about as good as could be expected.

ClarkinHawaii

EXCELLENT INFO, as always. My gut says I don't want to touch it, and so I'm not going to.

lostarchitect 

I only build wheels for friends, but even so, no, I would not build rims like that. I also don't build old rims, new or NOS only.

hueyhoolihan

i've never built wheels for profit. but i can say that having recently built a set of no-name chinese carbon tubulars, that they were the easiest build i've ever done.

and i recently hit a pot-hole harder than i've hit one in five years, that would be about 40,000 miles of riding. i was certain that i had ruined the front wheel or at least loosened some spokes. not the case, and because it was a tubular tire, i didn't even get a pinch flat (Vittoria Corsa Evo, 24 Sapim Laser spokes with aluminum nipples). i really couldn't believe it!

the braking is atrocious. though, they stop as well as my alloy rims, they grab like all git out. i'll be experimenting with brake pads for a while...

ClarkinHawaii

For my own use would be one thing; but for somebody else is a whole different story, in my mind at least.

Where did you get these carbon rims you just built?

hueyhoolihan

yeoleo. it was a nightmare, but everything turned out alright in the end. don't know if i would want to do business with them again. too much angst.

i will say "thank god for paypal..."

Kotts

Just a thought for those concerned about liability issues: I'm a consultant in my "day job" and I need (often by contract) to carry "errors and omissions" insurance. It's not terribly expensive, as insurance goes. Wouldn't something similar (or even the same type of policy) be a practical solution for those in the trade?

ClarkinHawaii

I'd be interested in hearing what "those in the trade" do liability-insurance-wise; and how much it costs

Dan Burkhart 

I don't know if things are similar in the US, where folks seem a tad more litigious, but here in the land of publicly funded health care my liability insurance for a home based bicycle repair business mostly focused on wheel building runs me $225 yr. When I had a 1,600 square foot retail location, it was only $75 more.
The big challenge is finding a company that will carry a home based business.

cs1

Liability is covered under the shops policy. If not they amend the policy and add "products and completed operations" coverage.

sickz

the chinese can churn out a quality product if you order it. i have no gripes w/ what comes out of china. i have gripes w/ outsourcing to them.

aside from that, carbon clincher wheels are pointless.

chriskmurray

I personally have built a number of "china carbon" rims, everything from fat bike rims to road rims. Since most of my communication is through email where I have it in writing, I just make sure the customer very clear that I will build the rim to the manufacturers recommended specs and if there is a rim failure I am not at all responsible and that while building, if I have any doubt about the safety of the rim I can refuse to continue at any time. I doubt that alone would hold up in court but at least I have some record of me telling them do use them at their own risk.

In reality though, these rims often are coming out of the same factories/molds as "name brand" rims we all know and trust and I have never had a single issue with one I have built. With the exception of the fat bike rims, they were all very high quality rims that built great. The fat bike rims were tolerable but there were a lot of smaller complaints I had that I did not have with skinnier options, mostly related to spoke hole drilling and variation in spoke bed thickness.

Dan Burkhart 

Your experience pretty much mirrors mine. I build a house brand line of wheels for a LBS with parts that they source. I've built about a hundred of them this year, all carbon rims sourced from China. All have been 100% circular, but the first batch did not have the spoke holes cleaned out very well, and we also had rim bed thickness issues. Also had problems keeping tires in the bead hooks over 100 psi. All those issues had been addressed with the second batch.
Other than that, no failures or other issues. 5 riders did the RAAM on them this past summer.
Awaiting the first batch of fat bike rims to build now for their house brand bikes. I"ll see how that goes.

ClarkinHawaii

As always, an abundance of good info--that's why I love this forum--Thanks, guys!