hkboy313

hey there,

caad9 4 2010 here. come with all rival and force standard cranks. i swapped to red compact. but 10 speed and was confirmed at lbs this would work. lost 2 links after upgrade and lowered f/d. shifts fine.

problem #1 : the f/d cable seems to be high tension when shifting to big chainring, is that normal? its an effort to shift but so was it before.

problem #2 : the chain seems to be clicking and rubbing only on the chainring sounds scratchy (f/d has clearance so it cant be that), but the r/d sounds fine and smooth.

problem #3 : the chain is kmc dx10sc, its not stretched or anything, i counted chains via big/big + 1" method for length as before. theres a power link as well. should this be replaced?

is my chain not compatible with this setup? :\ if not anybody recommend one for compact red crank 10 spd and rival groupset? i was really looking forward to try this out this weekend but failed...

thank you for any advise or suggestions. if something isn't clear i'll try to be more detail. in the replies.

rpenmanparker 

If chain stays are short, it is somtimes difficult to keep chain on the small ring from rubbing on the big ring when dealing with compact.

hkboy313

thanks, my frame is a 52cm...is there a solution for this?

btw this rubbing is throughout the shifting...small/small and all the way to largest cog in back. no problem in big chainring...

FBinNY 

Sorry, only one problem per post.

The FD cable is probably too tight in high because you have the cable trim a bit too far outboard, then are use the high gar limit to keep the FD from moving out as far as it want's to. Start by taking the tension off (shift to low) and backing the limit off. Then adjust cable trim correctly, just enough to shift smoothly and so the cage outer plate barely clears the chain in high (smallest rear). Finish by bringing the limit in so you cannot overshift and dump the chain. Test for this by pulling the cable away from the frame, rather than using the levers.

When you're finished, shift to high, and there should be a tiny bit more outward movement possible before hitting the limit.

As for the noise on the inner ring. Rubbing the outer isn't rare when coming from the outer rear (ie. crossed), but shouldn't happen except for the outer one or two.
Otherwise, use your eyes and look for any rubbing and see what you see. If there's no rubbing, but you still get some noise, it might just need some break in.

Andrew R Stewart 

If the chain is really through the span of the rear cogs then the ft der adjustment is horrendous. Or something else is going on and by your description we can't figure it out. I agree that with short stays (chain stays not seat tube) the angles that the chain engages the rings at can be a lot. Noise in the extreme angles is to be expected, but not in the fairly straight ones.

With the small ring the rear der cage is pretty wound up and any misalignment could be magnified by this. Has the hanger alignment been confirmed (or more to the point the rear der cage and cassette alignment)? Andy.

hkboy313

hiya! thanks i dont like to spam here or ill get yelled at. for the FD i followed this tutorial...good/ bad? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVI8q6GLLFw

sooo there is such a thing to 'break in' with the chainring? i never heard of that...ya i checked and theres no rub on anything...

btw my cassette is a 12-27, not sure if that would be a problem (i wouldn't think so but just saying)

dwmckee

Did he new crank keep the chainrings in teh same place or did they move in or out suignificantly? If teh spindle lenght on the BB is wrong it could make it really hard to adjust...

hkboy313

im not sure but i asked at a few places and was told this would work...the chain does look like its rubbing on the side closer to the big chainring though. i also readjusted the rear der and the rubbing persists...

FBinNY 

IMO- the tutorial is a bit vague regarding proper adjustment of outer limit, plus suggests that the limit screw affects upshifting - which is straight out wrong. The upper (outer) limit's sole function is to prevent overshifting and dumping the chain. It is NOT used to set high gear trim - EVER.

Think of it as you would the guard rail on a bridge. You drive your car down the lane and hopefully don't rub along the guard rail. Likewise, the trim is set by the cable, and the limit is only there as a safety against going over the side.

The inner limit is a bit different. Since the cable is usually slack in low, the FD will rest against the limit, so it does double duty, both as the end stop, and for trim.

Back to your bike, the trim is set too far outboard (cable too short/tight) and you're jamming the FD up against the limit. Slacken the cable slightly for correct trim and shift response, and/or maybe ease out the limit and it should come together. (see my prior post for more details).

Yes, chainrings, and all sprockets sometimes need a bit of patience as they break in. It's not that you do anything special, but initial wear takes off all manner of small manufacturing defects, such as burrs.

rpenmanparker 

Maybe the RD is just adjusted badly to cause noise in all gears. That is the usual cause. B-screw could be cocked up too.

hkboy313

ok so i will check those after work today. im not sure but noticed that the mechanic who installed this for me when taking out my force crank there were 2 clear spacers...really thin covers, 2 black "30mm spinder sram" washers? and a wavy washer (forgot which side that came from though) ...my sram red had only the new same black washers but he installed the clear covers on both sides and the wavy washer on the drive side as well. according to the sram installation sheet "BB30 IA" (only one that said bb30...whats the IA for???) in the diagram it didnt show anything else... check out this pdf on this site. https://www.marco-bike.com/download/Crankset/02.pdf

will this effect anything because the driveside chain rings maybe too close to the bike? or far? btw the sram red is the exogram and has a preload spacer or something on the non-drive arm...what is that for any ideas?

hkboy313

ok, everything shifts right, the b-screw is to the specs of the 10speed sram rival/force manual. i might change new cables but should i replace housing as well? (not sure if this has anything to do with the problem)

i did notice after readjusting the r/d there was like 2 or 3 cogs that had minimal noise on the small chainring...all the others was a rub of the inside of links closest to the big chainring...

any suggestions?

andr0id

My guess is they put your crank on wrong.

From the centerline of the frame, to the exact midpoint between the chainrings should be 43.5mm.
My guess is that it is less which is causing the chain to rub on the big ring.

There can be shims that go between the right cup and the frame that will move it outboard.
The wavy washer goes on the left side.

hkboy313

that's what I was assuming since yesterday. this frustrated me because the mech was so cocky waving the manual in the air and say who the hell need this... so easy. yet the manual didn't say to install wavy or other spacers in there.. when you say SIM is there specific thickness I need to get? I didn't install this.. the mech did. he also scratched up my bike geez bad luck. if I can do this myself I think I will just do that. but need help with shims... Thanks!

02Giant 

The two clear shims and the wavy washer are not needed with your Red crankset if the left crank arm is as shown in the install guide. Compression of the wavy washer is used to determine proper preload on your old Force crankset by adding or subtracting the clear shims.

I went from a Rival crankset that used the same preload adjuster as your Red, and replaced it with the Force crank, I had to buy the shim and wavy washer kit to get mine adjusted properly.

andr0id

I don't deal with these much. I have a FSA crank on my tandem which using this kind of setup, but most of my cranks are Dura Ace or Ultegra.

First, carefully measure your chainline and that will let you know what you need to do to proceed.

Then try and find the docs online for what you have. Almost every mfg has pdf copies of their install documents on the support pages or on the product page itself.

hkboy313

thank you. I emailed an lbs and they said some bike frames varies whether they need shim or not.. I'll take those extras out and verify. wish or wonder if anyone is caad9 like me and change over to 2012 exogram red cranks..

I'm all skeptical because it looks like the chain is jumping on the outer small chain ring still. considering I've adjusted all derraileurs.. there was a sram tech YouTube video I followed back in 2010 when I needed to adjust and it worked prefect but this crank is giving me more problems now which that video is kinda useless for this application.

hkboy313

ok, heres an update with no success.

chain is center to center 1", nothing wrong with it...but i'm wonder if its the compatibility of the chain now...should i get the sram pc1091r?

I left the wavy and plastic out. when installed there is lateral movement. so i used the pre load washer that is equipped on the arm (non drive side) and left a small gap and tightened. the drive side is completely flush to the frame and still spins smooth and no play or lateral movement. i'm assuming that is what the PRELOAD washer is for! correct me if my assumptions are flawed.

problem persists. but i now notice the its as it should be when chain is only at 5 or 6th cog!...everything else is rub up front on small chainring... based on this i thought maybe its a chain issue. my current one is KMC 10 speed as listed on first post.

please please anybody think or believe this could be a possibility? I will take a picture of what it looks like later...thanks guys

FBinNY 

Step one in any diagnosis is to rule things in or out. Chainline is easy to do so with a simple measurement using a cheap plastic ruler. The distance from the tips of the outer chainring's teeth to the center of a frame tube should be about 46-47mm. There's a bit of latitude, bit it should be close to that.

If you know the diameter of the downtube, measure from the ring to the tube and add 1/2 the tube's diameter.

If the chain is rubbing the inside face of the outer ring on any combination other than the outermost one or two, it would indicate a chainline error. The measurement should confirm, or rule that out sending you to a more subtle issue.

For example, chainline could be OK, bu the RD hanger bent outward slightly. That would put the lower pulley outboard of the line of the upper loop, and cause face rub on the lower loop, even when there's none on the upper.

OR, and this is rare these days, the rear triangle could be shifted to the right, or the BB shell twisted slightly so that the rear of the chainrings is inboard of the front. (very rare on any decent frame, but not unheard of). Test for either by placing a straightedge on a secant against the face of the outer ring and carrying it back to the cassette (use the edge, not the face because straightedges aren't always dead flat). Allow for the distance from the outer face to the center of the gap between the rings ((about 6-7mm) and it should line up dead center of the cassette. If it lines up well inboard of center, you have a frame issue.

So there are some tests to do --- before --- you take anything else apart.

Also use your eyes to see EXACTLY where and when the chain rubs anything.

hkboy313

booooo bad bad

hkboy313

FBinNY 

I'm starting to think that there's nothing wrong.

The chainline is fine
The chain rubs the inside face of the outer when coming from the smallest one or two rear sprockets, which is also normal - this eliminates rear triangle issues.
There's no reason to suspect the hanger, since that would apply to more rub in the lower loop than upper - not the case here.
You don't mention the FD cage rubbing - so I'll assume it's OK too.

So we're back to normal engagement issues, which might simply be minor burrs and will break in, which is what I originally suspected.

Also, you didn't say anything about the chain, so try the cheap simple cure all ---- oil. A decent chain oil will lower friction between the plates and teeth allowing smoother engagement, with lower chance of the chain climbing up on the teeth and dumping to the inside. I could recommend a brand of chain oil but won't, just try a heavy oil for the moment and see if it helps. Worst case, it won't and you can wipe it off and go back to whatever you're using (or not using) now.

hkboy313

im using finishline and always have. btw can anybody advise or verify the preload spacer on the non drive side is correct as i said previously? i also posted a video for this purpose...so you and others can hear the rub...its sad but its clear the chain isn't touching the f/d...i left it on the 2nd cog since all the others are pretty much the same...https://youtu.be/Hgs-zDCdxqM

FBinNY 

I can hear the rub, but can't see it in the video. You have to use your eyes and SEE where the chain is touching on something. Look at the ENTIRE loop including the RD until you can see where it's touching on something. Pay special attention to where the chain enters the RD at the idler wheel. Also, shift to various gears and turn the crank until one of the large chainring pickup pins lines up with the chain and stop, and confirm clearance by sliding a dollar bill between the chain and outer ring.

Of you can't see anything, take the bike out and ride it and see if it rides OK. If so, ride it for 10 miles or so until the issue either resolves or becomes pronounced enough that you can spot it.

Unfortunately, looking at a bike via the internet, even with video is nothing like having it in your hands, so ultimately you'll have to be the one to spot the issue. We can only make suggestions.

If it doesn't resolve, let a pro put his eyes, ears and hands on it.

hkboy313

ok, I found the geometry of my bike. the chainstays are 40.5 on my 52cm bike frame. I did not know compact cranks would give so much trouble. I read its common? if I knew I would have never considered ... someone claimed Compact Chain rub... that 41.2 chainstays are not short but is 40.5? I'm wondering if theres a workaround this...spacer in cassette area? :O

something else I wanted to point out from the link provided they brought up the chain length/links...I got rid of 1 inner and 1 outer to accommodate for the few teeth on big ring...I measured big/big method. now im really wondering if I should have left them to test before I popped them out...could this be a possibility?