Has anyone EVER had a wheel go out of true?
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Has anyone EVER had a wheel go out of true?
Ever notice how people brag about how true their wheels stay? Way beyond probably reality? Especially if they built them themselves or got a good buy on it or conversely paid a ton for it. No one ever seems to need to true a wheel.
"Dang! Ah weigh nigh onto 600 lb and only ride on broken up asphalt. Ah aim for every single pothole. Built me up a set of 1,100 g wheels. First time Ah ever done it. Them wheels been true for lemme see, why it must be 37 years now, 130,000 miles Ah guess. Never touched 'em since they was built."
Peculiar, huh?
"Dang! Ah weigh nigh onto 600 lb and only ride on broken up asphalt. Ah aim for every single pothole. Built me up a set of 1,100 g wheels. First time Ah ever done it. Them wheels been true for lemme see, why it must be 37 years now, 130,000 miles Ah guess. Never touched 'em since they was built."
Peculiar, huh?
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Funny thing, though: at the shop I see plenty of wheels in dire need of truing.
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If it were on my own Bike Id take care of the situation .
for 'Loaded' International Touring My wheel build specs went Tandem-like so when 1 spoke broke (Rear drive side of Course)
there were 47 left sharing the load, and a couple minutes with the spoke wrench and the rim was brought back in True,
and I rode for several days till the opportunity to replace the broken spoke with the spare I brought With, was Convenient .
but I do have a C&V wheel set last touched in the 80's, that has remained fine for Decades . That streak extended by using other Bikes More ..
for 'Loaded' International Touring My wheel build specs went Tandem-like so when 1 spoke broke (Rear drive side of Course)
there were 47 left sharing the load, and a couple minutes with the spoke wrench and the rim was brought back in True,
and I rode for several days till the opportunity to replace the broken spoke with the spare I brought With, was Convenient .
but I do have a C&V wheel set last touched in the 80's, that has remained fine for Decades . That streak extended by using other Bikes More ..
Last edited by fietsbob; 12-17-14 at 04:31 PM.
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The wheels I've built myself usually need a little re-truing after the first few weeks of riding. There are usually a few places that are 1-2 mm out of true. I guess I am not doing a good enough job with spoke windup or something. After that touchup, I check them about yearly and they don't need anything. I'm sure if I abused them, they would (need re-truing), but I don't (abuse them). I ride on the street, don't jump curbs, and stand up or hop at major road irregularities. I think it might depend on how OCD you are. If I had a micrometer and was obsessing over 0.1 mms, I'm sure I'd be re-truing all the time. An out of true has to approach 1 mm before I think it is worth unmounting the wheel and setting up the truing stand. I used to be more fussy but then I got a life :-)
Last edited by jyl; 12-17-14 at 04:36 PM.
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Well...
First of all, there's no generally agreed definition of "true".
My pal who cleans the underside of his saddle with Q-tips after each ride on his MTB undoubtedly has a rather different opinion of "true" than I have.
But for me, my first set of MTB wheels built from scratch(took me ages) endured two rounds of credit card touring along hiking routes of the Swiss Alps and the Pyrenees, and then several years of commuting at 6000 miles/year before the rear rim cracked at the eyelets. But I did have to true them twice, once after having been knocked over by a car, and once after a collision with another cyclist.
I believe that if it weren't for the impacts, I might still be riding them. The brake tracks were ceramic coated, and while admittedly braking had faded a bit, the coating was still intact and doing OK.
First of all, there's no generally agreed definition of "true".
My pal who cleans the underside of his saddle with Q-tips after each ride on his MTB undoubtedly has a rather different opinion of "true" than I have.
But for me, my first set of MTB wheels built from scratch(took me ages) endured two rounds of credit card touring along hiking routes of the Swiss Alps and the Pyrenees, and then several years of commuting at 6000 miles/year before the rear rim cracked at the eyelets. But I did have to true them twice, once after having been knocked over by a car, and once after a collision with another cyclist.
I believe that if it weren't for the impacts, I might still be riding them. The brake tracks were ceramic coated, and while admittedly braking had faded a bit, the coating was still intact and doing OK.
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I currently have seven pairs of wheels, and they are four hand-built sets, two Mavic Ksyrium sets and a Shimano Dura-Ace C50 factory-built set. I am one of those people who try to keep my wheel true tolerance level within .5mm or less. I'll throw my wheels on the truing stand on rainy weekends or after hitting bumps or potholes. For the most part, all my wheels stay true within tolerance.
One thing that surprised me one time was unexpectedly hitting a pothole at about 22 MPH, resulting in both front and back flats and a little dent in the lip of the rear rim, but when I threw the C50s on the truing stand, it was still as straight as an arrow. I was, and still really impressed!
The other thing I notice with the C50s is that the wheels hold air much more better than my other wheels when between use. And it's not the tubes, as I use the same Conti tubes on all my wheels.
One thing that surprised me one time was unexpectedly hitting a pothole at about 22 MPH, resulting in both front and back flats and a little dent in the lip of the rear rim, but when I threw the C50s on the truing stand, it was still as straight as an arrow. I was, and still really impressed!
The other thing I notice with the C50s is that the wheels hold air much more better than my other wheels when between use. And it's not the tubes, as I use the same Conti tubes on all my wheels.
Last edited by Jed19; 12-17-14 at 04:48 PM.
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The wheels I've built myself usually need a little re-truing after the first few weeks of riding. There are usually a few places that are 1-2 mm out of true. I guess I am not doing a good enough job with spoke windup or something. After that touchup, I check them about yearly and they don't need anything. I'm sure if I abused them, they would (need re-truing), but I don't (abuse them). I ride on the street, don't jump curbs, and stand up or hop at major road irregularities. I think it might depend on how OCD you are. If I had a micrometer and was obsessing over 0.1 mms, I'm sure I'd be re-truing all the time. An out of true has to approach 1 mm before I think it is worth unmounting the wheel and setting up the truing stand. I used to be more fussy but then I got a life :-)
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And I will further brag, at great risk of offending the broken spoke fairy, that I have never broken a spoke on any wheel I built. These wheels all bear a substantial weight with me in the saddle too.
Stand by for a "first broken spoke" report.
Stand by for a "first broken spoke" report.
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Parker raises an interesting point.
Consider that a wheel going out of true means that something was stressed beyond it's yield limit and is now slightly distorted making a spoke effectively longer. It could be the rim at the spoke hole, or the spoke itself (it's rarely the hub, but I've seen large flange hubs bend). Or if nothing was overly stressed, it could be that nipples loosened over time.
IMO- nipples loosening is inexcusable, and a cancer which gets progressively. But distortion from overload is fine, and happens to the best of wheels out in the real world. Wheels going slightly out of true on occasion is not only normal, but in a way it's a desirable indicator that the wheel isn't overbuilt. I focus on building the lightest wheels that will do the job. As such I'm working near the edge and fully expect them to give a bit when overstressed.
Consider that a wheel going out of true means that something was stressed beyond it's yield limit and is now slightly distorted making a spoke effectively longer. It could be the rim at the spoke hole, or the spoke itself (it's rarely the hub, but I've seen large flange hubs bend). Or if nothing was overly stressed, it could be that nipples loosened over time.
IMO- nipples loosening is inexcusable, and a cancer which gets progressively. But distortion from overload is fine, and happens to the best of wheels out in the real world. Wheels going slightly out of true on occasion is not only normal, but in a way it's a desirable indicator that the wheel isn't overbuilt. I focus on building the lightest wheels that will do the job. As such I'm working near the edge and fully expect them to give a bit when overstressed.
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the job being trueness of the wheels i use. although i have to admit, i might consider using some specialized tools if i had to fix bikes for a profession. some of the owner's OCD, paranoid, OTT, unrealistic and naive expectations would be too much.
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 12-17-14 at 08:12 PM.
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My last wheel build was BDOP special about 3 months ago and after maybe 1200 miles they are as true and the day I built them ( deacon knocks on the wood of the cross) although not put to any extremes I have been pleased. My last build was ok 3 years ago but I did break one spoke first time ever after maybe 3000 miles. Replaced and did a minor retention of the wheel nothing major but they have been perfect since then. In the end a retouch if probably in order after maybe 300-700 miles. If you get past this on your regular rides then probably you are good to go.
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My new builds get a re-true and tension check after a few hundred miles. Usually it doesn't amount to more than some OCD tweeking.
I tend to overbuild wheels to some degree focusing on comfort and reliability. Don't get me wrong, I don't want heavy clunky wheelsets, but I have no problem with going 32 or even 36 spokes when I might have been able to get by with 28, and I use brass nipples.
Once the new wheels have settled in, I check and re-true every winter, more for something to do than that they really need it. Rarely do I find a wheel that is more than 1mm out of lateral or radial true or outside of +/- 5% tension. A well-built wheel of appropriate strength components just doesn't come out of true easily.
I tend to overbuild wheels to some degree focusing on comfort and reliability. Don't get me wrong, I don't want heavy clunky wheelsets, but I have no problem with going 32 or even 36 spokes when I might have been able to get by with 28, and I use brass nipples.
Once the new wheels have settled in, I check and re-true every winter, more for something to do than that they really need it. Rarely do I find a wheel that is more than 1mm out of lateral or radial true or outside of +/- 5% tension. A well-built wheel of appropriate strength components just doesn't come out of true easily.
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My new builds get a re-true and tension check after a few hundred miles. Usually it doesn't amount to more than some OCD tweeking.
I tend to overbuild wheels to some degree focusing on comfort and reliability. Don't get me wrong, I don't want heavy clunky wheelsets, but I have no problem with going 32 or even 36 spokes when I might have been able to get by with 28, and I use brass nipples.
Once the new wheels have settled in, I check and re-true every winter, more for something to do than that they really need it. Rarely do I find a wheel that is more than 1mm out of lateral or radial true or outside of +/- 5% tension. A well-built wheel of appropriate strength components just doesn't come out of true easily.
I tend to overbuild wheels to some degree focusing on comfort and reliability. Don't get me wrong, I don't want heavy clunky wheelsets, but I have no problem with going 32 or even 36 spokes when I might have been able to get by with 28, and I use brass nipples.
Once the new wheels have settled in, I check and re-true every winter, more for something to do than that they really need it. Rarely do I find a wheel that is more than 1mm out of lateral or radial true or outside of +/- 5% tension. A well-built wheel of appropriate strength components just doesn't come out of true easily.
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Please define "out of true".
I build my wheels as true as I can, that usually means about .2mm lateral and .5mm radial (except sometimes at the joint) which may vary with different rims. No problem if I can't do better than .5L/.8R. Usually I build my wheels, ride them and don't care much about retruing except if they are noticeably out of true (didn't happen so far except after hitting some big pothole) or if I haven't something better to do on a rainy day. BTW, I use 36 and 32 spokes wheels, weigh about 70kg and try to avoid potholes.
Edit: OP just defined that as I posted.
I build my wheels as true as I can, that usually means about .2mm lateral and .5mm radial (except sometimes at the joint) which may vary with different rims. No problem if I can't do better than .5L/.8R. Usually I build my wheels, ride them and don't care much about retruing except if they are noticeably out of true (didn't happen so far except after hitting some big pothole) or if I haven't something better to do on a rainy day. BTW, I use 36 and 32 spokes wheels, weigh about 70kg and try to avoid potholes.
Edit: OP just defined that as I posted.
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Please define "out of true".
I build my wheels as true as I can, that usually means about .2mm lateral and .5mm radial (except sometimes at the joint) which may vary with different rims. No problem if I can't do better than .5L/.8R. Usually I build my wheels, ride them and don't care much about retruing except if they are noticeably out of true (didn't happen so far except after hitting some big pothole) or if I haven't something better to do on a rainy day. BTW, I use 36 and 32 spokes wheels, weigh about 70kg and try to avoid potholes.
Edit: OP just defined that as I posted.
I build my wheels as true as I can, that usually means about .2mm lateral and .5mm radial (except sometimes at the joint) which may vary with different rims. No problem if I can't do better than .5L/.8R. Usually I build my wheels, ride them and don't care much about retruing except if they are noticeably out of true (didn't happen so far except after hitting some big pothole) or if I haven't something better to do on a rainy day. BTW, I use 36 and 32 spokes wheels, weigh about 70kg and try to avoid potholes.
Edit: OP just defined that as I posted.
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Sure. Don't take my tongue-in-cheek thread title to heart. A little exaggeration is being invoked here for effect. But one does read post after post (including in this thread) about magic wheels that never need truing. Just trying to spice up the slow winter season.
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Sure. Don't take my tongue-in-cheek thread title to heart. A little exaggeration is being invoked here for effect. But one does read post after post (including in this thread) about magic wheels that never need truing. Just trying to spice up the slow winter season.
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I think your post supports my thesis perfectly. On the one hand you say a well built wheel (i.e. your wheel) doesn't come out of true easily. On the other hand you allow that you find some deviiation from true, but rarely as much as 1mm lateral or radial. IMO even half those deviations denote a wheel that is severely out of true. So we are saying the same thing, but meaning different things. And that is what I have thought all along. When many (most?) folks say their wheels stay true, they are applying a rather relaxed standard. A standard that can be met with truing between brake calipers. But not as rigorous a standard as some folks insist on and which requires a truing stand to reliably meet. No offense to anyone. I am just trying to explain a seeming contrdiction. And I think the explanation lies in attitude and semantics.
I used to be absolutely OCD about true and tension. I was once frustrated that I couldn't keep very tight tolerances in lateral and radial true and tension in a particular wheel. An experienced wheel builder who has been my mentor put things in perspective for me. His take was to get a wheel as laterally true as possible while accepting minor variances in spoke tension and up to 1mm of radial hop. His reasoning is that there isn't a bike tire in existence that is made to and guaranteed to seat within 1mm of radial tolerance. Add that to the fact that there isn't a public road in existence that has less than 1mm deviation over the distance of one wheel revolution, and it quickly becomes apparent that putting excessive emphasis on perfect radial trueness of the rim is a fruitless endeavor. We're not talking sloppy, ovalized wheels here, just that it is pointless to drive yourself nuts for that last few tenths of a mm, especially radially.
Just to clarify, I stated that finding more than 1mm deviation in a well-built wheel was rare (usually traced back to hard use) and that well-built wheels don't come out of true easily. Keep in mind that I'm a big guy and some of my wheels are used for MTB, gravel grinding, mixed surface touring, and while not abused, none of them are babied either. 24-7-365 absolute trueness in all aspects on any wheel used in the real world is unrealistic. On the other hand, a wheel that will take a beating and remain well within functional, even demanding tolerances is very achievable. I find minor tweeking during my annual hub servicing or after replacing worn out tires, is enough to keep my wheels up to my expectations. I use a truing stand (basic calipers not micrometer dials) and if I'm laterally true, under 1 mm radial hop, and within +/- 5% tension, life is good.
Last edited by GravelMN; 12-18-14 at 07:32 AM.
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Tore through 3 wheelsets... terrible hop, fixable perhaps not sure? I stopped having the bike shops true them, my vuelta corsa lite set faired best but the weinman that came stock on the bike and old 27" arayas were nothing but trouble from the start. This is 100+ miles a week, many 300 mile weeks, and ALOT of carrying heavy backpack/loaded up rack plus my 170-220lbs.
Experience and riding bigger tires has made the mavic aksium race's I have now stay true for the better part of a year. Recently I moved ~20 miles south and carried everything I could stuff in my bag/strap to my rack. Tools, computer... routinely dragging along over 50 lbs with alot of that over the rear wheel. Riding 32c/35c tires helped alot, as did slowing down significantly over the terribly bumpy roads I cross. Aside from this, the mavic wheels seem built very well - the straight spokes may make the difference... every spoke on my other wheelsets broke at the J bend, I broke at least 20 spokes over the course of 2 years!
Experience and riding bigger tires has made the mavic aksium race's I have now stay true for the better part of a year. Recently I moved ~20 miles south and carried everything I could stuff in my bag/strap to my rack. Tools, computer... routinely dragging along over 50 lbs with alot of that over the rear wheel. Riding 32c/35c tires helped alot, as did slowing down significantly over the terribly bumpy roads I cross. Aside from this, the mavic wheels seem built very well - the straight spokes may make the difference... every spoke on my other wheelsets broke at the J bend, I broke at least 20 spokes over the course of 2 years!
#23
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With mountain bike wheels who knows. With disc brakes, a wheel is either true or broken.
On my road bike, sure. I had a set of Mavic rims cxp22 rims with 105 hubs, that were a stock wheel, wouldn't stay true at all. The fulcrum and shimano wheels I have now are dead true, and I run with small brake clearances 1mm each side.
On my road bike, sure. I had a set of Mavic rims cxp22 rims with 105 hubs, that were a stock wheel, wouldn't stay true at all. The fulcrum and shimano wheels I have now are dead true, and I run with small brake clearances 1mm each side.
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I'll add to the "magic wheel" claims. The only wheels I've had that required truing in service were the OEM's on my '85 Bridgestone 400. After that I've never had a wheel that went functionally (repeat functionally, not microscopically) out of true. And, I've had wheels with 25,000 and more miles. I've had wheel sets made by Colorado Cyclist, Wheelsmith and two very good Shimano prebuilt sets.
If you are OCD enough you could claim these wheels weren't "true" since a dial caliper might detect a tiny amount of radial or lateral runout. However, they have always remained true enough that the brakes never pulsed and I could run the pads with close clearances with no drag.
If you are OCD enough you could claim these wheels weren't "true" since a dial caliper might detect a tiny amount of radial or lateral runout. However, they have always remained true enough that the brakes never pulsed and I could run the pads with close clearances with no drag.
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I've found low end generics to be far superior to low-end brand names like Bontrager Selects, couldn't keep it true after a few ride, happily traded them for a set of $100 ALEX wheels which have been great for 2 years.
For me, on modern wheels, I find that I have more issues with hops, when compared to my older wheels. Is that a result of materials and weight reductions or just a coincidence?
For me, on modern wheels, I find that I have more issues with hops, when compared to my older wheels. Is that a result of materials and weight reductions or just a coincidence?