Is this normal on an aluminum freehub?
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Is this normal on an aluminum freehub?
I just took my rear cassette off of my Stans Arch Ex wheels and noticed all these spots where the cassette seems to have chewed in on the free hub. I have never had an aluminum free hub before, so I don't know if it is because it is a different metal, or if the guys at my LBS didn't put the cassette on correctly? All I know is I want to sell these wheels and fear I now cannot with a damaged freehub, in which case I am screwed and have to spend more on these damn wheels. Thanks in Advance for any help guys and gals.
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i've heard it's common on aluminum freehubs, and is not too much of a problem, but convincing a buyer could be difficult.
once smushed, it doesn't get too much worse. again, hearsay.
once smushed, it doesn't get too much worse. again, hearsay.
#3
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invasionusa, That galling isn't unusual on an aluminum hub. Generally it's the individual cogs that cause the galling. Some have suggested that it can be caused by insufficient torque. Perhaps, but that may only help prevent the galling, not prevent it.
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Actually if insufficient torque was the problem then there would be little gauging of the FH body's splines from the cogs. One could REALLY tighten up the cassette lock ring and only end up with the cogs pressing up against each other more tightly. One's leg strength will be always higher then this lock ring tightening ability. The real solution is to use a steel freehub body. Even the cassettes that have a carrier which has a few of the cogs on it will possible have a few cogs not shared by the carrier and then have some, although fewer, notches made on the freehub body splines. These notches is one of the costs of AL bodies. Andy.
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Yes, it's par for the course, especially with the Shimano spline pattern which was designed around steel parts. All the driving torque is concentrated on the small 2mm wide, by 2mm (or so) deep spline engagement area. So a strong rider, or one who rides in hilly areas is going to see this kind of stuff. You even see some of it, but to a much lesser degree with steel freehub bodies. You see it a bit less on Campy's deeper splines, but they too get beat up this way.
You can prevent the issue to a degree by keeping the lockring very tight. That compresses the cassette stack and binds them together a bit, so some of the torque is transferred to neighboring sprockets, thereby spreading the load.
BTW- that freehub isn't so bad. I've seen them much worse, and know of at least one case where somebody (strong, heavy climber) cut a groove all the way around so the sprocket was free spinning.
You can prevent the issue to a degree by keeping the lockring very tight. That compresses the cassette stack and binds them together a bit, so some of the torque is transferred to neighboring sprockets, thereby spreading the load.
BTW- that freehub isn't so bad. I've seen them much worse, and know of at least one case where somebody (strong, heavy climber) cut a groove all the way around so the sprocket was free spinning.
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Yeah normal, but I avoid them. Ti for my good wheels. Some manufacturers insert a steel strip to spread the load.
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Take a look at the damage and notice how it gets progressively worse as you move in. The larger the sprocket, the deeper the gouges, until you get to where sprockets are paired on aluminum "hubs" or spiders. The wider engagement area of the spider doesn't damage the freehub body, despite the sprocket having more torque. This is the best evidence of the superiority of having larger sprockets on spiders, vs. all loose sprockets and spacers.
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If you asked Stan's they might have said: "We recommend using cassettes with a rigid alloy carrier (XTR, XT, XO, etc.) for the largest sprockets. Cassettes with individual steel sprockets may mark the alloy freehub, though marks are only cosmetic and will not affect the performance of the hub."
#9
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The length-strength divided out by the gearing actually results in very small torque at the rear-wheels. You can actually stop the rear wheel of an all-out sprinter by grabbing the tyre. If you look up the recommended torque for the lockring, it's one of the highest used on a bike. At the shop, we had a special torque wrench with 18" handle just for the cassette lockrings. No way can any human tighten that lockring to spec with a mini 6" wrench.
That hub posted was also based on Shimano's steel designs. The ones using aluminium bodies have deeper splines to prevent that damage.
That hub posted was also based on Shimano's steel designs. The ones using aluminium bodies have deeper splines to prevent that damage.
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You're right that it's about leverage. Since the freehub body is roughly 1/20th the radius of the wheel, the forces at the body will be 20 x those at the rim. Same torque in both places, but torque = force X radius, so you get serious loading at the splines.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 01-13-15 at 12:00 PM.
#11
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To make it workable, I've filed down the resulting rough edges. Just something that happens with steel cogs/aluminum freehubs, *shrug*. The freehub is a consumable/wear part in this case, a hidden cost of the dreaded weight weenie syndrome.
But if OP is selling the wheels, it's just a matter of the cost of a new freehub -- can you make more selling the wheelset with a new freehub, including the cost of the new freehub, than you'd be able to just selling the wheelset as-is, no new freehub?
But if OP is selling the wheels, it's just a matter of the cost of a new freehub -- can you make more selling the wheelset with a new freehub, including the cost of the new freehub, than you'd be able to just selling the wheelset as-is, no new freehub?
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It's normal if you're using a cassette that doesn't have an integrated spider. White Industries makes their freehub bodies out of titanium for this very reason.
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Regarding the OPs concern about selling it.
It's like you're selling your house, should you paint it first.
The hub is fine, so it's not like you'd be doing anything wrong by selling the wheels. If the wheels are in otherwise pristine shape, the freehub might be persieved as an issue and prevent you from getting top dollar. OTOH - if you add the cost of a replacement freehub it might bring the overall ask to more than the wheels will bear.
If the wheels are otherwise mint, I'd upgrade, otherwise I'd leave it to the buyer.
It's like you're selling your house, should you paint it first.
The hub is fine, so it's not like you'd be doing anything wrong by selling the wheels. If the wheels are in otherwise pristine shape, the freehub might be persieved as an issue and prevent you from getting top dollar. OTOH - if you add the cost of a replacement freehub it might bring the overall ask to more than the wheels will bear.
If the wheels are otherwise mint, I'd upgrade, otherwise I'd leave it to the buyer.
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#14
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The second statement proves that the first is backward.
You're right that it's about leverage. Since the freehub body is roughly 1/20th the radius of the wheel, the forces at the body will be 20 x those at the rim. Same torque in both places, but torque = force X radius, so you get serious loading at the splines.
You're right that it's about leverage. Since the freehub body is roughly 1/20th the radius of the wheel, the forces at the body will be 20 x those at the rim. Same torque in both places, but torque = force X radius, so you get serious loading at the splines.
You can easily generate way more with a torque wrench with long lever. Lockring will win every time IF you tighten to Shimano's specs. But 99.9%!of people use a 6" wrench and get two clicks on the lockring and call it good. When in fact, they've only gotten up to 10% of the required clamping force. Then they wonder why their hub gets all chewed up.
I assert that any time anyone ever has this problem, they will not be able to tell you to what torque they tightened the lockring.
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 01-13-15 at 01:37 PM.
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This. There are places where it makes sense to try to save weight, but unless you have a pretty compelling reason (or an especially deep pocketbook), the freehub body isn't one of those places.
#16
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A Sharpie marker of the right colour will touch up that freehub body just fine. On top of bare aluminium, it'll be slightly translucent and match anodizing very well.
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Gearing does mean that the torque at the wheel will be usually be lower than that at the crank, but that too is controlled by the laws of leverage. On a typical bike the rear wheel is turning up to 5 times faster than the cranks (depending on the gearing) , so the torque might be as low as 20#ft or so in your example (in 53/11). OTOH with a 24t granny and a 28t cassette sprocket, you get something like 120#ft.
As I posted earlier, you can see the effects of progressively increasing torque as you move inboard on the freehub.
In any case, the lockring does not directly take up the sprocket torque, which is 100% borne by the splines. The lockring does provide some traction via friction, (see post No.5 - 2nd paragraph) but without the splines, no amount of lock ring tightness would prevent the sprockets from slipping forward.
It's very simple, strong riders, especially those in hilly areas can expect some degree of freehub marring, especially with an aluminum freehub, or with a granny gear. A tighter lockring helps, but cannot absolutely prevent the problem.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 01-13-15 at 01:57 PM.
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I'd think it would make more sense the other way around: steel freehub body and consumable aluminum cogs.
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The system works as is, using steel on steel with carriers to spread the load of the larger sprockets. Possibly carriers or integrated spacers on more sprockets would help, but that would raise costs.
No system is perfect, and sometimes the best solution isn't the "best" but just the least bad.
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i agree. i think a substantial number of threads exist for no other reason than to gather support for buying stuff the OP (not in this case) doesn't need. a worn out cassette warrants a purchase, IMO. of course, so does a worn out freehub!
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 01-13-15 at 04:47 PM.
#24
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Those are in the triples arena, touring & off-roading. Granny-gearing do generate the most torque at the rear. Not many of those people are using alloy freehub bodies for weigh savings. And if they are, most likely they're using XTR with the deeper splines anyway.
Multiple markets with different configurations and each requires looking at different examples.
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 01-13-15 at 06:41 PM.
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It does make you feel like a real hill climber though, doesn't it!
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