ClarkinHawaii

Doing a survey of my pre-threaded spokes on hand, I notice that the length of the threaded area varies a bit.

Since I will be threading my own and I can make the length of the threaded area any length I want, what is considered ideal?

Should nipple length (ie 12, 14, 16mm) have any bearing on length of threaded area on spoke?

Thank you.

Andrew R Stewart 

The typical threaded length is about 10mms. This is what a Phil spoke cutter produces. Andy.

Bill Kapaun

For me, consistent length per batch of spokes is more important.
Since the cutter heads on your Hozan have a finite life, adding 1mm to a 10mm thread length is 10% more wear.
Since you should be able to match up correct spoke length to a gnats behind, I might even consider rolling a mm less??

ClarkinHawaii

Thanks, Andy

ClarkinHawaii

Good idea. I've stopped being concerned about wearing out the cutting heads--I'm just setting aside $10 from each wheel build into a "tool replacement fund".

Although I'm just now finishing up my Super Special Spoke Spacer (say that fast five times), it's still basically a hand-and-eye cutting procedure, so gnat's behind might be stretching it.

What about the different nipple lengths--does every nipple have the same length of threads, regardless of the length of the nipple? What's the reason for making them different lengths, any way? I don't think I've ever seen a rim where wrench access would be aided by a couple of extra mm's, so why?

ClarkinHawaii

Speaking of which--

Andrew R Stewart 

Nifty length setting tool. But I'd hate to have to do a pair of 48* wheels using this method Andy.

FBinNY 

Don't forget to send my design fee or royalty.

As for thread length. 10mm is about ideal. This works well with 12mm nipples showing out a thread as a visible indicator that spokes are too short to engage the head properly.

I also prefer nipples to only have 6-7mm of thread. This combination allows a working tolerance in spoke length of 5mm, from -2mm below, to +3mm above the nipple head.

fietsbob

Test the actual threaded length of the Nips, not all of the length is threaded..

ClarkinHawaii

Well, it's not finished. Once completed, the wood slider piece will be anchored in place by the crossbar held by the bolts-with-wingnuts. Holes in 2x4's not drilled yet. So all I have to do is carefully measure one spoke on the spoke ruler, mark the length with a fine-tip Sharpie, insert it into the Special Supersonic Speedy Spoke Spacer, set the slider to the right length, clamp down the slider with the crossbar and wingnuts, and I'm all set. As many spokes in that length as I want, just as fast as I can feed them into the spacer and nip off the protruding ends flush where they emerge from the hole in the aluminum upright.

And yes, FBinNY came up with the original conception, and his name will be placed in honor over the door of my modern, spacious factory in Bangladesh (see pic), where I am presently retooling and hiring skilled, highly paid craftsmen to fabricate these. In fact, eager and enthusiastic craftspeople are lining up now for this employment opportunity (see pic). I figure demand will be insatiable, especially with the Velvet Jones infomercials that I plan, so better get yours now at the special introductory price of only $250*. Send cash to me, send issues and concerns to FBinNY.
*limited to Bikeforums members with over 10,000 posts and 100 mentions. All others $400. Shipping to Alaska and Hawaii extra.

nfmisso

Cutter heads?? spokes have rolled threads, not cut. The threading die displaces the metal inwards and outwards so that the pitch diameter is roughly the diameter of the spoke body. The maximum diameter of the threads is greater than the initial body diameter of the spoke.

Rolling threads generally takes more force/power than cutting threads, and results in stronger threads in most metals because they roll formed threads are work hardened.

There should be very few metal particle coming from the operation. Plenty of lubrication is beneficial for tool life, it helps to keep things cool too. Commercial roll forming is down with a constant stream of lubricant/coolant.

davidad

I just measured two DT spokes. One was a tick under 10mm and the other a tick over 9mm.

Bill Kapaun

That's the best you can do?

miamijim

Only a small part of me thinks your not serious.

Dan Burkhart 

Well done on the home grown tool.
All nipples are not threaded alike. As long as you stick with 12mm nipples, which is pretty much an industry standard, 10mm of thread works out fine. When you start working with 16mm nipples, things get interesting. Some will have a deep enough skirt to allow 10mm of thread to pass through the nipple, but I've found most don't. They bottom out at least 2mm shy of the screwdriver flat.
I made a slight mod to my Morisumi machine to allow for either 9 or 13mm of thread, depending on the job.
When I was using the Hozan tool, I mounted a spacer on the shaft behind the crank to limit the travel. Interchanging spacers allowed for differing thread length as needed.

FBinNY 

Who said I wasn't?

Drew Eckhardt 

Depends on the nipples.

10mm with DT 12mm nipples which have 8mm of thread. That will let you go 1mm below the slot without threads showing with any more risking alloy nipple breakage and exposing the first thread, and 2mm beyond the top.

I like FB's shorter nipple threads idea, but was unable to find any the last time I built wheels and was too lazy to remove threads.

Depends on the nipples.

The longer DT nipples add threads, so you'd want to add 2mm at 14mm and 2mm at 16mm to get the same nipple engagement.

With DT spokes having 9.5mm of thread I think that's idiotic especially with alloy nipples - with the 16mm nipple the spoke is going to end 0.5mm below the slot with zero tolerance, and when you allow for any slack you risk nipple breakage.

ClarkinHawaii

This sounds like a great idea--I've just been counting how many revolutions I turn the crank. If you keep cranking after the spacer has halted forward movement of the roller heads, do they strip the threads or just run in place, so to speak?

I've seen youtube videos where guys have hooked up electric drills to the Hozan, and wondered how they know precisely when to stop the drill. Unfortunately with my hearing I can't understand the audio part which probably explains . . .

ClarkinHawaii

I don't remember ever being given a choice about length of threaded area when purchasing nipples. Also my mind is boggled at the thought of removing threads from nipples--like how one would do it? But it's an academic question, because I don't really see myself ever doing it.

I'm using exclusively Sapim (Belgium) SS spokes, both 14g straight and 14g DB. They came with "free" Sapim 14mm nipples, so that's what I'm using.

FBinNY 

Unless you're a large OEM client (0.5M nipples or so), nobody will give you choices about the thread length in their nipples. So finding nipples with good overrun capability is a matter of shopping and trial and error. Wheelsmith nipples of years ago were that way, with about 7mm of threads on a 12mm nipple, also the old DT nipples that were made by Dubied (recognizable by the machine marks on the wrench flats).

As for removing thread, it's a quick and easy job with a drill between 2.1 and 2.4mm fixed in a Dremel clamped to the bench and the nipples hand fed. You slide plastic tubing on the drill bit as a depth stop. It goes very fast.

dabac

Assuming the Hozan allows it, I've got a small-volume, high margin business idea for you - sell spokes with extra long thread to be used for repairs.
With double-wall rims, the practical limit for tolerable overshoot is probably somewhere in the 10 mm range.
And while exposed threads on the hub side of the spoke is an eyesore, it's not a structural problem.

With extra-long threaded "repair" spokes, one length would be enough to cover all 26", low-flange hub/rim combos and another to cover all high-flange hub/rim combos.
Then two lengths for 28" wheels. Maybe a 3rd if you get into high-profile rims.
Or something like that. Some research needed.

Now, if I'm building up a complete wheel, sheer efficiency would dictate that I wouldn't want to spend more time that necessary twirling each nipple in place, promoting the preference to use traditionally sized spokes when available.
Nor would I be particularly inclined to pay a general premium for riding around with threads showing.

But since I don't do enough work to merit stocking a range of spoke lengths, repairs often drag because of me having to buy spokes from somewhere to finish the job.

I'd be quite happy to pay a hefty premium per spoke, if I could get away with having a stock of - say, three different gauges and four different lengths and still be able to pull off a spoke replacement on almost anything that rolled through the door.

Selling "roadside replacement spokes" to tourers would be a doddle. No more faffing about with tracking down the exact spec, or pulling a spoke out of the wheel for sizing.
Tape measure or yardstick, measure from elbow to top of nipple and you're done.

dabac

I've used a drill press, with the depth stop set. Have a plier intended to clamp lead weights on fishing line with a perfect cutout to hold nipples I like to use. But I've never been tempted to do more than a few when otherwise stuck in an oddball build - like a 32H rim to a 36H hub laced 3X....

ClarkinHawaii

Thanks for the idea--I'll investigate further.

Also, I'd be interested in hearing what other posters have to say about the idea.

How big is the potential market for something like this? Hard for me to tell.

SquidPuppet

Since you are building a lot of wheels, and the subject here is nipples, you NEED one of these. Watch the video for the "Shuffler". I really want one because it's just plain super cool, and it works great, but I don't build enough wheels to justify it. Definitely worth the $38.00 for a frequent builder though.

Wheel Fanatyk Nipple Shuffler - Wheel Fanatyk

Bill Kapaun

You'll probably generate enough "mistakes" to fill your "one of" spoke needs.