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Old 10-28-10, 11:28 PM   #26
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Add one more thing to the list of things that you're wrong about.
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Old 10-29-10, 06:09 PM   #27
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Dude Chris is pretty connected. Who knows who's numbers he has?
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Old 10-31-10, 02:23 AM   #28
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Dude Chris is pretty connected. Who knows who's numbers he has?
My post was out of sarcasm, I don't care who he could call. From his posts he indicates these as just a couple of misses on the stunts a professional does.

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until the rear triangle twisted the first time that you under-rotated a 360, or the headtube snapped off coming up short on a double...
I'm thinking you miss those on a chromolly frame and you have twisted wreckage just the same, that's if the rider doesn't snap a bone from sticking the landing wrong. And that's my point about any professional rider, they're getting the best frames from their sponsors, as many as they want, to do the most extreme aerial maneuvers & stunts and are they even the same one's you and I get thru the LBS ? If I'm a sponsor, I'm putting a frame out there that I figure is going to win & finish an event. Because that sells bikes. There are no style points in a team rider and product failing to finishing an event, much more scoring low. So it's back on the rider, not the equipment to perform. This thread was about steel, I found this to be some good reading:

http://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/steel.php

At the bottom of that link, there are some key definitions. Another post in this very thread (# 14) went on about tensile strength (ts, from here on out). TS has to do with the point where the steel fails due to stretching. Then there was hardening of the steel that was mentioned. Well the harder the metal thru quenching, the more brittle it becomes. It needs to be heat tempered and that's a compromise, because while certain aspects of the metal is improved, other aspects suffer or are weakened.

BMX frames in general are short and squatty with larger tubes. That design makes the entire frame tougher. Hi-ten may not last as long as chromolly, but eventually both are going to fail, somebody posting a thread in here isn't going to be doing what Ryan Nyquist is going to be doing on the Dew tour. And like I said, I doubt Ryan Nyquist or any other rider is going to be using the same bike from event to event on a tour, especially if he misses the landing on a stunt.

http://bmx.transworld.net/21026626/f...st-bike-check/
http://www.fatbmx.com/modules/news/a...p?storyid=4378
http://bmx.transworld.net/21029376/f...vember-3-2006/

From season to season he doesn't have the same bike, in some cases it's a modified prototype. I think it would be hard for the rest us to change out bikes like he does. Now, if CMcMahon can call Ryan Nyquist, I certainly would like him to ask him how many bikes he goes through and at what rate he replaces them ? Basically, what the criteria is that necessitates changing bikes ?
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Old 10-31-10, 02:33 AM   #29
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I put a lot in that last post, but I found this tends to suggest that even if he calls Ryan Nyquist, he's not going to get the most informed answers either:

http://bmx.transworld.net/21026626/f...st-bike-check/

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Some of the items on Ryan’s bike are so new that even he didn’t know all the details, so Haro’s Mike Varley helped fill in the blanks with the information inside the parenthesis.
I think he rides whatever they show up with as a prototype to test ?
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Old 10-31-10, 11:05 AM   #30
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You win. Hi-ten steel is just as good as chromoly. I visited the warehouses of Solid, Stolen, Odyssey, S&M/Fit, Cult, and Haro/Premium, and Tip Plus just a couple weeks back, and they all use hi-ten steel for all of their high-end welded parts.

Just kidding. Not one of them is using hi-ten steel on anything high-end, and all of the prototypes that we were shown at Haro didn't use hi-ten. But, hey, maybe you should call some of those companies up and argue your point?

Also, good job with the Nyquist bike checks from 2005 and 2008. That really solidified your argument there.
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Old 10-31-10, 12:41 PM   #31
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Oh christ you're fun man. You call what bmxers do "stunts"?
"Disposable heroes"?

You're ****ing crazy dude.
Hi-ten is crap, chromoly does hold up to the rigors of crashing and doing "stunts". The 360 that will destroy a hi-ten frame will not destroy a chromo frame. Some pros do get new frames all the damn time but most don't. Most are fairly underpaid.
No one who really rides wants a hi-ten frame.
Just admit you're wrong so we can all go home now.
I'm pretty sure I could crumple a hi-ten frame in a matter of hours. I've yet to have any issues with chromoly. aaargh so annoying.
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Old 10-31-10, 08:11 PM   #32
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robertv, anyone can damage or worse yet, destroy a frame in a matter of hours, it only takes an instant and it doesn't matter what it's made of. That's not the point, there are bike manufacturers (some/many of them the more reputable names in the industry too) that are making bmx frames from 100% hi-ten to some combination of hi-ten and chromolly, whether it be just a down tube and/or a fork, even the downtube and the chain stays and fork, they all aren't crap, just bikes that work on a spectrum of price points in between.

CMcMahon, the point is you use Ryan Nyquist as the bar to be measured by, not everyone is at Nyquist's level walking into the LBS, if they ever get to that skill level, not that they'll ever go on the Dew Tour or whatever else anyway ? Ever think that whomever thinks that they do want a bmx bike that it's going to be a passing fancy ?

Sheesh, you guys take yourselves too seriously sometimes ?
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Old 11-01-10, 08:12 AM   #33
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We take this seriously because its a serious topic. And no, theres a good chance that not many people are going to get to Nyquist's skill level, but there are tons of people who are still at a really high level of riding. And like robertv said, a lot of pro riders are really underpaid, and if you look at a lot of their bikes, they really aren't all that nice. A lot of them look like my bike, a beat up bike thats meant to be abused. Which is why we ride chromoly, because it is better able to stand up to the abuse we put it through. Hi-ten can't. Its just that simple.
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Old 11-01-10, 02:07 PM   #34
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm hedging my bets and my money in with the guy that doesn't ride BMX.
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Old 11-01-10, 02:34 PM   #35
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i don't ever post in BMX, but this thread caught my interest. chromoly (or 4130) steel is just a formulation of steel, just like hi-ten (1020) is just a formulation of steel. they are both steel. they weigh the same. however, as mentioned above, chromoly is stronger per unit weight than hi-ten. ergo, you can make a chromoly frame of equal strength as hi-ten using less material. this will translate into a bike that is just as strong as a hi-ten bike but lighter. bike makers do this for weight savings, nothing more. that does not mean in any way that hi-ten steel bikes are "crap", or less strong than chromoly bikes. they are just heavier. more steel is needed to make them strong. there are plenty of bike makers still making hi-ten bikes out there, especially utility bikes, cruiser bikes, and city bikes that are used for general purpose. look at holland. your typical dutch city bike is made from hi-ten, and weighs a ton. people carry themselves + cargo + friends on them. they hop curbs with them. you don't see those bikes bending and breaking. you also don't see them winning any races.
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Old 11-01-10, 03:16 PM   #36
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You don't see those bikes bending or breaking because "they're utility bikes, cruiser bikes, and city bikes that are used for general purpose." They aren't being used in the same way at all, and aren't subject to the same sorts of stresses. You might as well compare a cruise ship to a polar icebreaker...
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Old 11-01-10, 10:14 PM   #37
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Might just be me, but I don't see anything here that a hi-ten frame isn't going to be able to handle. I don't doubt there are forces these bikes are going thru that you wouldn't put a road, track, atb/mtb frame thru. But just look at the frame designs, shorter, squattier & sturdier because of it. For the most part these guys are timing their stunts/tricks, with speed and distance to land as softly or as smoothly at the end of the jump. Virtually every jump is landing on the back wheel first to absorb the impact. It's technique and I'd hedge my bets and money that these guys are practicing their aerials and landing in a foam pit to master their bmx skills, not wandering into the LBS and picking one out of the bunch and trying it over at the local bmx park.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-PE7xyXU8w&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP4fUiJ01_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2LyAQhx4Ms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cRLH8ov5A

These guys are incredible to watch, do they get as much air on a heavier bike ? Probably not, but they can still do these type of tricks on a hi-ten frame.
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Old 11-02-10, 09:24 AM   #38
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For the most part these guys are timing their stunts/tricks, with speed and distance to land as softly or as smoothly at the end of the jump. Virtually every jump is landing on the back wheel first to absorb the impact. It's technique and I'd hedge my bets and money that these guys are practicing their aerials and landing in a foam pit to master their bmx skills, not wandering into the LBS and picking one out of the bunch and trying it over at the local bmx park.
These guys are incredible to watch, do they get as much air on a heavier bike ? Probably not, but they can still do these type of tricks on a hi-ten frame.
Not everyone lands smooth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqnKpb0Vq5k
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Old 11-02-10, 11:11 AM   #39
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wds178, duly noted, I can appreciate the skill level when someone does that in the right locations, but riding like that in public places and damaging public & private property ? Especially the scene where the car has to stop for him to land in the street. That's not cool, no matter what type of music plays to the video. Personally, I think that car scene was scripted, but for that to happen in real life ? That poor driver, what that jerk put them thru. Another scene, where he nearly slams into a parked car, rest assured, I catch him doing that around mine and a dent in my car door, crashing/wrecking from his stunt/trick and an injury from that will be the least of his concerns. There, I couldn't care less about whether he can pay for what he breaks, I'd rather not have to deal with the damage at all, I have better things to do than to deal with a claims adjuster, he should go find another place to make an @zz of himself. I don't care if he does it to another's car, somebody else may want to go thru it or not care, I just don't want to deal with it when it's avoidable on his part.
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Old 11-02-10, 11:44 AM   #40
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Your essay on the ethics of street riding has nothing to do with the Hi-Tensile steel vs. 4130 Chromoly debate.
Nevertheless, street riding IS a major part of BMX. So to claim that BMXers would be fine w/ Hi-Ten based on a series of youtube clips you've culled from Dew Tour riders simply shows your ignorance of what BMX riding fully entails.
Sure, Hi-Ten would be fine for entry level riders just starting & wanting something cheap. But at a higher performance level, we want something stronger, lighter, simply better.
You can make a stronger frame at a lighter weight using 4130. And that's what we want, light yet strong.
For High-Ten to be as strong, you need more. Thus heavier.
-Bill
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Old 11-02-10, 12:16 PM   #41
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I swear, Bill, that Sean Burns section never gets old. There's a reason why it won the Nora Cup for Video Part of the Year in '08. But, hey, it's not for everyone, especially old guys that ride hi-ten ATBs around town.

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I can appreciate the skill level when someone does that in the right locations
Those were the right locations.

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Old 11-02-10, 02:58 PM   #42
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Here's some food for thought, why do you think municipalities are installing surveillance cameras in so many locations ? If you think those are the right locations, more power to you, but I predict like red light traffic cameras, eventually the police are going to start enforcing violations, destruction of private and public property ? If you're a minor, your parents will get a citation and bill in the mail ? They'll figure out who you are and the school system will be more than happy to be the tool to identify children with photo id's and so on, if not the state requiring everyone to at least have a state id. This isn't about being a stale old bitter man like you imply, but rather a respect for the community and the taxpayer funding involved. Enjoy it while you can, but big brother is watching and coming up with new ways to deal with it. Who knows, don't pay those fines, maybe they do pull you over, like someone that hasn't paid for parking violations, they impound your bike and make you walk home. More fees and fines involved ? Ain't technology great ?
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Old 11-02-10, 05:26 PM   #43
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Old 11-03-10, 02:59 AM   #44
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"nsfw" !
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Old 11-03-10, 08:02 AM   #45
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Here's some food for thought, why do you think municipalities are installing surveillance cameras in so many locations ? If you think those are the right locations, more power to you, but I predict like red light traffic cameras, eventually the police are going to start enforcing violations, destruction of private and public property ? If you're a minor, your parents will get a citation and bill in the mail ? They'll figure out who you are and the school system will be more than happy to be the tool to identify children with photo id's and so on, if not the state requiring everyone to at least have a state id. This isn't about being a stale old bitter man like you imply, but rather a respect for the community and the taxpayer funding involved. Enjoy it while you can, but big brother is watching and coming up with new ways to deal with it. Who knows, don't pay those fines, maybe they do pull you over, like someone that hasn't paid for parking violations, they impound your bike and make you walk home. More fees and fines involved ? Ain't technology great ?
Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the original debate at hand. Running out of arguments?
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Old 11-03-10, 09:47 AM   #46
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You can make a stronger frame at a lighter weight using 4130. And that's what we want, light yet strong.
For High-Ten to be as strong, you need more. Thus heavier.
-Bill
that's essentially what i stated above, in fewer words .
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Old 11-03-10, 06:13 PM   #47
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Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the original debate at hand. Running out of arguments?
I and others have made certain points and you refuse to acknowledge their validity, I might as well be talking to myself ? And somehow CMcMahon implying that hi-ten doesn't hold up to the forces has to be conditional too. Take this comment, which I happen to agree with:

Quote:
You can make a stronger frame at a lighter weight using 4130. And that's what we want, light yet strong.For High-Ten to be as strong, you need more. Thus heavier.
So we have 2 bikes with the same components weighing within a couple of pounds of each other. That has to be attributable to the frame, seeing how everything else is the same components & weights. The heavier bike is effectively just as strong as the lighter one because more frame material was used to offset the strength differences between hi-ten & chromoly steels. The heavier bike will not go as fast, and therefore won't perform the same heights of an aerial, whether it's significant or not in terms of the "wow" factor to impress the spectators is another thing, but each will be able to perform reasonably close to one another. How much force, more or less is involved in that jump and landing ? That's going to depend more upon the riders weight more so than the bike/frame weight ? But both bikes are capable of handling those forces. It's about sticking the landing and technique, anyone can go out and slam a few beers or even soberly psyche themselves to the point where they feel that they're invincible and can accomplish a stunt/trick, then go out of their way to try and destroy anything they choose to pedal and attack obstacles in and along their way. Heck they may be even trying to damage or destroy whatever it is they're trying to jump over or on ? That's a rider's motive for doing what they do. I figure I could go out and try jumping a motorcycle over curbs and concrete walls just the same and it wouldn't take me very long to damage or destroy the bike or obstacle, even both.

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Old 11-03-10, 08:33 PM   #48
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Whatever dude. You've made it clear that you have a cursory knowledge of BMX at best. From what I've read, your experience with BMX represents only a small percentage of what BMX is. Most BMXers will never enter a contest. Many will never see a foam pit.
Nearly 40 years of progression in frame design has brought us to where we are today.*
Back in the late 80's/early 90's riders of ALL levels were breaking frames left and right. Pros, sponsored Ams, and unknowns. The BMX industry's solution to this matter was oddly enough, NOT switching to High Tensile steel. Instead, companies began building stronger frames out of 4130. At first by using more if it. Then, by being smarter with the engineering until reaching a reasonable strength/weight combination.
It may be worth pointing out that it wasn't the larger, successful bike companies leading the way for stronger BMX bikes. Instead, it was the riders starting their own companies simply so they would have a bike that wouldn't collapse under them.
But, whatever. You just go ahead believing what you like.*
Those of us who actually ride BMX will continue to choose what is the best tool for the job. Not because we've swallowed some industry BS. But because we know what works from experience. In my case 25 years of experience.
-Bill
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Old 11-04-10, 02:29 AM   #49
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Whatever dude. You've made it clear that you have a cursory knowledge of BMX at best. From what I've read, your experience with BMX represents only a small percentage of what BMX is. Most BMXers will never enter a contest. Many will never see a foam pit.
Nearly 40 years of progression in frame design has brought us to where we are today.*
Back in the late 80's/early 90's riders of ALL levels were breaking frames left and right. Pros, sponsored Ams, and unknowns. The BMX industry's solution to this matter was oddly enough, NOT switching to High Tensile steel. Instead, companies began building stronger frames out of 4130. At first by using more if it. Then, by being smarter with the engineering until reaching a reasonable strength/weight combination.
It may be worth pointing out that it wasn't the larger, successful bike companies leading the way for stronger BMX bikes. Instead, it was the riders starting their own companies simply so they would have a bike that wouldn't collapse under them.
But, whatever. You just go ahead believing what you like.*
Those of us who actually ride BMX will continue to choose what is the best tool for the job. Not because we've swallowed some industry BS. But because we know what works from experience. In my case 25 years of experience.
-Bill
How many purchases wind up like this ? I may not know bmx like you, but I do know what often goes on in the world ? Many of those you indicate will never enter a contest or see a foam pit, will also never do a stunt/trick that requires a 100 % chromoly frame either ? I will say this is a rather striking bmx bike, perhaps a great bargain even, but grossly underutilized ?

http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/bik/2035523278.html

Quote:
2010 Eastern Dragon BMX - $375 (Coral Springs)

Date: 2010-10-31, 6:17PM EDT
Reply to: sale-emau5-2035523278@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

Like new 2010 Eastern Dragon BMX Bike. I used it three times, the bike is in great condition. The only blemish is a scratch on the back of the seat. Paid $500.00 a few months ago. $375 cash.

Bike Information:

Frame: Eastern FULL 4130 Chromoly Frame with Replaceable Brake Mounts, Eastern Logo Dropouts, and Integrated “Grim Reaper” Seatpost Clamp. Eastern Promise: Lifetime Warranty, Lifetime Upgrade Policy
Tob tube size: 20.5"
Fork: Eastern Full 4130 Chromoly with 1-Piece Steerer Tube, Machined Integrated Bearing Race, Tapered Legs and Hangfree
Headset: Sealed Bearing 45/45 Internal
Sprocket: Original Eastern 25T Medusa Lite Alloy Sprocket
Cranks: Original Eastern SHAFT Chromoly Heat-Treated 3pc. Cranks***
Bottom Bracket: Eastern Sealed Bearing Mid-BB
Handle Bar: Eastern FULL 4130 Chromoly 8.25”x28” w/ 2mm Wall Thickness
Stem: NEW Eastern Choker 3 Stem w/ Integral Wedge Clamping System and Excess Material Removed for Weight Savings
Grip: NEW Eastern Fuquay Flyer Grip
Front Hub: Eastern Logo Alloy Shell, Sealed Bearing, 3/8”” Chromoly Axle
Rear Hub: Sealed Bearing Cassette Hub. Forged 6061 Alloy Shell, 1-piece 9-Tooth Driver with 6 Pawl Engagement, Hollow 14MM Axle, and Low-Profile Hub Shell Specially Designed to Accommodate the Eastern Pop-n-Loc Hub Guard
Front Rim: Alloy, 36 Hole
Rear Rim: Double Wall Alloy, 36 Hole
Spokes: 14G Stainless w/ Brass Nipples
Front Tire: NEW Eastern Fuquay Flyer 20” x 2.3”
Rear Tire: NEW Eastern Fuquay Flyer 20” x 2.3”
Cable: Straight Cable
Rear Brake: Forged Alloy U-Brake
Brake Lever: Forged Alloy, Designed for U-Brakes
Freewheel: Sealed Bearing 9T One Piece Driver w/ 6 Pawls and 15 Degree Engagement
Chain: KMC 410 H
Saddle: NEW Eastern Pivotal Plastic
Seat Post: Alloy Pivotal
Seat Clamp: Eastern Designed, Integrated “Grim Reaper” Style
Pedals: Eastern Plastics




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Last edited by fuji86; 11-04-10 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 11-04-10, 02:49 AM   #50
robertv
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Holy ****ing christ.
I'm living in Amsterdam right now, I have a crappy hi-ten dutch city bike. It's at least 40 years old. If I treated it remotely like my BMX I'd snap it in five minutes. Seriously. Chromoly isn't just a little lighter, it's stiffer, and stronger too.
We're not all pros but even us non-professionals can destroy hi-ten frames. One bunnyhop down a 5 stair would probably be enough for me to bend the **** out of a hi-ten frame. Even if I did it smooth. Why? Because I'm a big dude. I do this on a daily basis with my chromoly frame. That's why I ride chromoly. Quit adding to a discussion you clearly know dick about.
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