juvela

bottom bracket spindle:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/birhakeim/15045002703/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/birhakeim/15665962972/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/birhakeim/15479177807/

btw - here is what maker boehm is up to a half century later:

https://www.boehm.fr/qui-sommes-nous.php?lang=en

non-fixie 

Thanks for answering my question on the housing stop before I typed it . Seems we were all posting at the same time.

MKBU7950

juvela..thats the bottom bracket.. just like that..its so hard to read..thank you both again for this great information. im surprised everyday with something. it is a little confusing about those two cable stops.... almost could pass for a spoke holder.. like on some touring bikes..

juvela

wrt the cs housing stop:

usually one sees a clamp-on cable guide/housing stop at the south end of the downtube OR one sees a housing stop like the one you have paired with a similar companion on the downtube. non-fixie and i are both struck by this oddity.

wrt the bb fittings:

the spindle clearly hails from st etienne france and the lockring is wf from belgium. am guessing cups may be wf as well. wf products are shown on page 53 of this 1963 ron kitching catalogue. the bicycle's hs is shown there also.




wrt the machine's eclectic mix of fittings -

normally one would assume this to be changes performed post purchase by the owner. another possibilty is that frameset was purchased separately by original owner and assembled to their liking and needs...

non-fixie 

Actually, I think that such a combination of parts was pretty common in these parts, in the 'pre-gruppo era'. Have a look at the 1968 RIH below. I'm pretty sure everything is original (except the way the chain rings are mounted).

non-fixie 

And by 'original' I mean the way it left the Fongers works in '68. This is from the original sales brochure for the 'Full Race' version:

juvela

oh, it's that machine with the customised saddle clip again, tres chic et unique!

gotta hand it to those polderese volk.

MKBU7950

I forgot to answer a question about the pedals. The only markings are on the caps as shown in pics. Also R and L. I wanted to ask you guys, given the pics and info. What do you think a bike might be worth in the state it is at now. I see italian and asian, domestic and some French bikes on the market, so I know general market for some bikes, but this one def has got me. I wouldn't even know where to start. I do know the value of some of the components. But as a whole.. I'm lost thanks again. I'm having a lot of information overload and excitement with this bike project.

non-fixie 

I am not familiar with your market, but the relative lack of interest for this thread on what's basically an American forum should tell you something. 'Unknown, unloved' is the appropriate saying here, I believe.

Even here in Holland, if a project like this showed up on the local classifieds site in my size, it'd probably be me buying it at something like €75. Or maybe it would be sold for a bit more to a Rotterdammer, if it were well-presented with the complete story.

juvela

non-fixie -

we are definitely on the same page and in agreement complete wrt "the pre-gruppo era" - "nolo arugmento."

the machine does however present some contradictions such as the single plateau gearing in the presence of the boss to mount a front mech control lever. the boss tells us it was built for multi-plateau gearing and that it is post "suicide" era. in this regard it would be interesting to examine the chainline. if originally constructed with single plateau gearing one would expect the three position cog (middle on a five speed block) to line up with the chainwheel. if however, it was converted from multi-plateau gearing to single one might find the chainwheel to align with the four position cog (second smallest). this assumes of course that spindle was not changed; a piece of information we lack.

one image(s) we have not seen is/are any "as found" pictures. we have the bicycle partially disassembled and the bicycle in a mock up state. there would be information in such imagery that is presently absent.

wrt valuation - i live in the same land as poster and cycle yet have no ideas. it is a badge no one will have ever heard of so its value will be of a curiosity nature. we shall never see a wanted classified advert stating "wanted wbr bicycle."

a potential new owner would either be considering purchase in order to build it up to a particular need/use or from the perspective of the unique oddity it represents.

pedals: thank you for this information the r and the l tell us they will be 9/16" x 20f. (iso). you say there is a mark on the dustcap but what is it?

now that you have bb apart is it bsc? is shell 68mm or 70mm? the single ring/groove on the face of the adjustable cup is likely a thread code.

brakes have not been mentioned. did bicycle come to you without them?

thank you for the additional information and photos.

my confidence never wavered that non-fixie would know outright or else discover the identity of our subject. have seen his photo an his cranium appears normal size. however, the amount of vintage velo lore he has stored in there is simply staggering!

non-fixie 

I just noticed that both links in my earlier post to Peter Ravensbergen's blog were to the same page. Instead, the first link was meant to go here. I've corrected the original post as well.

I've also been looking at the serial number. The Belgian import frames I mentioned earlier didn't usually have a serial number. They were supplied as unmarked 'no-name' frames, so if it's such a Belgian frame, the number was likely added by WBR. In that case, could '66' be the year? Haven't got a clue yet what the 'GO' (or 'G0') could be.

MKBU7950

Bottom bracket is just short of 68 mm. 67.7? .. i cant fully remember. and the pedals have lyotard on the cap. The market here in the Tampa Bay area is tricky, but there are lots of riders and some collectors. We shall see what happens. right now its getting it back on the road. cause whats a bike if you cant ride it from time to time.

non-fixie 

Getting it on the road as such should not be particularly difficult or expensive. I expect it to have British threading, so most cheap stuff will work.

Doing so with nice, period correct parts might be more of a challenge (the kind of challenge we at C&V tend to love). However, with the Brooks/Stronglight/Titan parts you've already got an excellent starting point.

A rolling restoration would work well for this bike.

FWIW, I'm facing a similar challenge right now with this bike, so I am quite interested in your plans.

juvela

non-fixie -

thank you for the correction of the blog links. was wondering why we had two links to the same page. have been unable to get the images there to display in a larger format, yet you seem to have done it. have tried with two different computers and two diferent browsers. still no success.

wrt your expres/express. like the look of your frame better than the 1955 example from the gathering. your frame's blades have strikingly little rake. hard to imagine this on a 1950's era road frame. the 1955 bike has a great deal more rake to its blades. hope you are able to learn more regarding this interesting frame...

non-fixie 

Yeah, sorry about the double links. Must have been the combination of the late hour and the jenever.

To make up for it I called the blog post author on the telephone tonight. Turns out he has two WBR bikes. Most of what he knows about them is in the blog posts, but I also asked him who might have built the frame. He was sure that WBR didn't build their own frames, at least not after WWII.

He suggested that it may be Belgian, and that it could have come from Plum in Ghent. Plum is one of the bigger names in the Belgian bike industry, and they still exist. The 'Plume Vainqueur' is rather famous in these parts (check out this one!).

The pics in the blog posts, BTW, aren't any bigger, only the one I stole, but I will be visiting the bike in question somewhere next month and I'll be sure to bring a camera, so hopefully the picture situation will improve.

juvela

hello non-fixie,

thanks very much for your response; much appreciated.

wrt plum and plume vainquer -

it seems bicycles were manufactured under both names. what does it mean when a bicycle is badged with one vs the other?

back in the eighties i took in a plume vainquer frameset with just a couple small bits of hardware. it was orange with black trim and was built for 650b. iirc it had a chainguard and appeared to be set up for single plateau derailleur gearing. nice transfers. a cycling friend wanted it to build up and i recall ordering some 650 rims for him to build wheels. he since has relocated so i can only work from memory on the bike.

non-fixie 

A summary of what's on the Plum website: originally Pol Desnerck's brand was called 'La Plume'. When a competitor from Brussels came with the more prestigious-sounding 'Plume d'Or', Desnerck retaliated with 'Plume Vainqueur'. This was all in the days that the French language was considered superior to Dutch (or Flemish, the 'Belgian Dutch'). This sentiment changed after WWII and Desnerck jr changed the name to the more Flemish-sounding 'Plum'.

I don't know when this happened exactly, and IIRC I've even seen pictures of a bike with both versions on it. Anyway, a 'Plum' would be newer than a 'Plume'.

juvela

thanks very much for this clarification non-fixie. had long wondered about this.

Thank You!

juvela

very minor update -

in the course of another search ran across the bicycle's fork crown.

it is an Ekla Model D.

the frame's Belgian maker was certainly cosmopolitan. they employed British frame tubes and crown, French lugs and shell, paired with a set of Italian frame ends.



the firm of Ekla also produced some pencil point seat stay caps so that may be what was used here.

MKBU7950 -

have you reached any decisions regarding the bicycle?

non-fixie 

The EKLA D was used by more brands in this part of the world. RIH used them for quite some time as well. As a matter of fact, the bike in post # 31 has one as well:

juvela

grazie mille don non-fixie!

mozzo posteriore looketh to be three-piece whilst mozzo anteriore appearth one-piece. mixed set?

whot be that jeugo de direccion? p three, lightrace, other?

sure luv that custom saddle clip. doubt i shall find one of those available upon the waves of the embaymenture...

non-fixie 

Don't you go grazie-mille-ing me now! I'm currently in Italy, and I've been grazie-mille'd all day already!

The headset on the RIH had no brand name on it, iirc, and is a 'W.F.' according to the catalog.

Wrt the 'mozzi': I have no access to the bike or most of the pictures from here, so I'll have to get back to you on that one later.
@MKBU7950, sorry for highjacking your thread. How is the WBR?

juvela

non-fixie wrote -


"Don't you go grazie-mille-ing me now! I'm currently in Italy, and I've been grazie-mille'd all day already! "

was thinking it just aboot time for the Chiantishire sojourn. take it that you and mrs. non-fixie were able to get your respective kits all well and truly sorted.


non-fixie wrote -

"The headset on the RIH had no brand name on it, iirc, and is a 'W.F.' according to the catalog."

of course, what WAS i thimking!?!?



"Buon viaggio per nostro bici asso non-fixie!"

ZZZ7

WBR Brillant
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-brillant.html

juvela

ZZZ7,

your links take one to a site inviting the visitor so "sign in to the cloud" in russian.

not of much help.