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  1. #1
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    READ FIRST - C&V Valuations Forum Guidelines

    Welcome to the BikeForums Classic & Vintage - Valuations subforum.

    This forum was created due to the increasing number of threads asking about the value of a bicycle from both new and old members of the forum. While the C&V community is always here to help answer questions, and give our opinions on the quality of a bicycle is, the number and frequency of these threads had reached a problematic point. Thus, the decision was made to give these types of threads their own subforum where they can be read and replied to by those who wish to give honest, meaningful responses to the inqury.

    The moderators do ask that those who are posting new threads and those responding to them please follow these Guidelines.

    When Posting a "What is this X worth" thread:

    1) Do NOT attempt to, in any way, advertise that you are attempting to sell the item you are asking the value of. This means linking to your ebay auction, craigslist ad, or otherwise stating that you wish to sell it. The Marketplace area is open to members with upgraded accounts if you wish to sell your item.

    2) Please supply as much information as you can, and pictures are most helpful, this includes a meaningful and descriptive title. The more information you can provide about the item you are asking about the value of the better we can answer the question. If you do not know much about the item you are asking about, again, photos are most helpful. Many of us can at least get a rough idea of the quality of a frame even after a repaint, from a good photo or two.

    3) Realize that the monetary value of a bicycle can very greatly depending on the market. If the bicycle is for sale locally, it's location alone can influence its cost wildly. What one member may be able to buy for locally $50 may be untouchable for another somewhere else for $300. Keep this in mind when reading responses to your inquiry.

    4) Because local prices can very so much, it is always a good idea to do a search on eBay for completed listings for similar items and see what they sold for. While prices can vary on ebay as well due to a number of factors, it tends to be a good starting point for what a bicycle is worth. In addition to ebay, try searching the Classic & Vintage section or the BikeList.org Archives for information about the bike and it's value.

    5) Sheldon Brown / Mike Kone's buying guide is a good starting point, but note this is an old version (1997)
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/vrbn-a-f.html#pricing
    Mike Kone is working on a newer version, a Draft can be found at:
    http://www.renehersebicycles.com/ but at the present time does not include all brands mentioned in the original version.

    When replying to a "What is this X worth" thread:

    1) Please give the member the benefit of the doubt that they have tried to get some idea of the value from other sources before posting here. Instead of the default "$3.50 or what the market allow" line, give them an idea of what you would be willing to spend on the frame, or describe the relative quality of the frame. ie: super rare Italian, quality road racing frame, entry level bike-boom boat anchor, etc.

    2) If you suspect that a member is fishing for a sale, please report the thread to a moderator so that we can look at it and contact the member. Please do not post accusations of such in the thread. Hopefully they have read this thread, but if not we would rather handle it quietly and privately.

    3) The more responses and opinions on value the better. If another member has posted a value that you agree, or disagree with, say it! The more data-points that someone can get on the value of a bike the better judgement they can make. We are here to help, and it doesn't take that long to say "yeah, $X sounds about right" or "It may go for $X where member Y is, but around here you'd be paying more like $Z."
    Last edited by cuda2k; 11-24-08 at 12:51 PM.
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  2. #2
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    I'm leaving this thread un-locked for a little so the C&V'ers can give any feedback on the guidelines above that they feel needed. Hopefully I covered all the general points that came up in the original suggestion thread a few weeks ago. I also went through about the top 5 pages of threads and moved a few of the threads that were asking for values.
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  3. #3
    working on progress treebound's Avatar
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    Might help if people put a decent description in the title of their thread. Instead of a title like "What's my old blue bike worth" something better might read "Value of 2-speed Schwinn Cruiser". If they don't know the age of the bike they can include that request in their initial post and leave it out of the title.

    Just a thought.

  4. #4
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    I agree on the value of good, specific titles. Perhaps there should also be something about using the search function of the forums to find previous examples/questions of value; that might avoid a gazillion posts asking about the same bike (e.g., "What's a Peugeot UO-8 worth?").

    Finally, I wonder what will happen to "what's it worth?" threads that get posted to the C&V top level. It seems like a huge job for the mods to move every thread; will self-policing work?

    Thanks for setting this up, Jon; I imagine it was a ton of work.
    Neal

  5. #5
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    treebound - added your suggestion into "Please Supply as much as information as possible" line. I'll add it under it's own point if needed.

    nlerner - kind covered that under point #4 above. I'll emphisise it more if it becomes a problem.

    As far as what will happen to the threads that get posted in C&V, Lotek and I (or any other mod who comes through C&V for that matter, I know garysol1 spends some time in here) will move them as we spot them. We won't catch every one obviously, but hopefully most of them.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k View Post
    When replying to a "What is this X worth" thread:

    1) Please give the member the benefit of the doubt that they have tried to get some idea of the value from other sources before posting here. Instead of the default "$3.50 or what the market allow" line, give them an idea of what you would be willing to spend on the frame, or describe the relative quality of the frame. ie: super rare Italian, quality road racing frame, entry level bike-boom boat anchor, etc.

    3) The more responses and opinions on value the better. If another member has posted a value that you agree, or disagree with, say it! The more data-points that someone can get on the value of a bike the better judgement they can make. We are here to help, and it doesn't take that long to say "yeah, $X sounds about right" or "It may go for $X where member Y is, but around here you'd be paying more like $Z."
    Well, with guideline #3, you want us to respond, but then in guideline #1 you say to give them an idea of what you would be willing to spend. Well, that means a lot of $0 responses from me.

    I am not a flipper nor do I want to be one. I only would pay for a frame/bike that would fit me and one that I would want. I would not pay $10 for a Varsity. I don't want one, it is not worth $10 to me. A Miyata 1000 that is not in my size is also not worth $10 to me. But, since you want me to respond, I will post a lot of "Not worth a dime" posts.
    Learn what's a platform pedal.

  7. #7
    brain damaged bovine muccapazza's Avatar
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    ^^^^did they really need to specify that you use some common sense?

  8. #8
    No lugs? No hugs. Exit.'s Avatar
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    I never got an answer as to whether I get mod powers in this board, since it was my brainchild.

    Cmonnnn, cuda.
    1997 Vitali track, 1986 Cilo Swiss road, 2006 KHS Flite 100, 2009 top-secret track bike.

  9. #9
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exit. View Post
    I never got an answer as to whether I get mod powers in this board, since it was my brainchild.

    Cmonnnn, cuda.
    Not my call.

    But I do appriciate you letting me hijack your thread when we came up with the idea. In fact, wasn't it your idea to make a stickied thread, not a subforum?
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  10. #10
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muccapazza View Post
    ^^^^did they really need to specify that you use some common sense?
    lol. But, I guess so. Could you tell me the common sense answer then?
    Learn what's a platform pedal.

  11. #11
    Lanky Lass East Hill's Avatar
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    I'll be keeping an eye on those threads as well. Also, if a member thinks that a thread would make a good candidate for this sub-forum, simply use the 'report this post' and we'll take a look at it.

    Perhaps cuda2k should have mentioned that only those who are willing to give an honest, helpful, response should reply .

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  12. #12
    Senior Member bmaxwell's Avatar
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    east hill again that is the common sense thing right?

  13. #13
    Lanky Lass East Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmaxwell View Post
    east hill again that is the common sense thing right?
    It is indeed common sense... .

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  14. #14
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
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    I don't find it so common sense. To me, it might be worth nothing, it might be worth much more. That is the problem with asking "How much is it worth?" There is a correct answer for each person, since each person has their own idea of how much it is worth.

    Well, if my $0 is not the correct answer, what is? If I would only pay $3.50 for it, is that not what it is worth to me? Should I not respond with $3.50? How about if I would pay $150 for the object, and I respond "$150", is it then correct? If so, then why is the $150 the correct answer but $3.50 or $0 not? At what price is the correct answer and I should respond?
    Learn what's a platform pedal.

  15. #15
    If I own it, I ride it CV-6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
    I don't find it so common sense. To me, it might be worth nothing, it might be worth much more. That is the problem with asking "How much is it worth?" There is a correct answer for each person, since each person has their own idea of how much it is worth.

    Well, if my $0 is not the correct answer, what is? If I would only pay $3.50 for it, is that not what it is worth to me? Should I not respond with $3.50? How about if I would pay $150 for the object, and I respond "$150", is it then correct? If so, then why is the $150 the correct answer but $3.50 or $0 not? At what price is the correct answer and I should respond?
    It is not what it is worth to you, but to an interested party. Clearly if you are answering $3.50 or zilch, you are not an interested party. Your reasoning would say, for example, that the Mona Lisa is worthless because you have no interest in it.

    I believe what is trying to be established is akin to a NADA value for cars. Valuation should be based on actual sales over a period of time. Not what one individual is willing to pay. Those valuations can and do get skewed by highs and lows, but over time, they prove pretty accurate.

    And I told myself I was going to avoid this forum.
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  16. #16
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Thanks Lynn, yes, if you personally are not interested in buying a Schwinn Varsity for instance, then perhaps your personal value of that bike is $0. But clearly if you were looking to sell that same Varsity then it is unlikely (though kind) that you would give it away. True, basing the value on actual sale prices is the best course. Unfortunately eBay's completed auctions only stick around so long (30 days is it?) so a more rare frame may not have an example in the completed listings when a person goes looking for it.

    The short of it is this, if you don't have any interest in the frame or in giving a meaningful response to a thread, then don't. If you wish to suggest what you would be willing to pay for such a frame / bike if you were so inclined to be in the market for one, great. If you recently bought or sold a bike like it, or fairly similar so that you have an actual solid data point with which to base your value, even better. We started this to be helpful for both the established community and those who have come to us for help. They may stick around, they may not. But while they are here let's treat them with some courtesy please.
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  17. #17
    No lugs? No hugs. Exit.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k View Post
    Not my call.

    But I do appriciate you letting me hijack your thread when we came up with the idea. In fact, wasn't it your idea to make a stickied thread, not a subforum?
    lol yes, a stickied thread was the original idea.

    ps: who's call is it?
    1997 Vitali track, 1986 Cilo Swiss road, 2006 KHS Flite 100, 2009 top-secret track bike.

  18. #18
    If I own it, I ride it CV-6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k View Post
    Thanks Lynn, yes, if you personally are not interested in buying a Schwinn Varsity for instance, then perhaps your personal value of that bike is $0. But clearly if you were looking to sell that same Varsity then it is unlikely (though kind) that you would give it away. True, basing the value on actual sale prices is the best course. Unfortunately eBay's completed auctions only stick around so long (30 days is it?) so a more rare frame may not have an example in the completed listings when a person goes looking for it.
    The solution to that is a database on Velobase. Nothing like me volunteering you for more work.
    Lynn Travers

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  19. #19
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
    The solution to that is a database on Velobase. Nothing like me volunteering you for more work.
    Nothing that hadn't already crossed my mind. As if the current upgrades isn't a large enough mountain of work to finish. But that's the topic of another thread.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
    It is not what it is worth to you, but to an interested party. Clearly if you are answering $3.50 or zilch, you are not an interested party. Your reasoning would say, for example, that the Mona Lisa is worthless because you have no interest in it.

    I believe what is trying to be established is akin to a NADA value for cars. Valuation should be based on actual sales over a period of time. Not what one individual is willing to pay. Those valuations can and do get skewed by highs and lows, but over time, they prove pretty accurate.

    And I told myself I was going to avoid this forum.
    So, my opinion means nothing unless I want to buy it? As regard to the Mona Lisa or anything else that is for sale through an auction. the highest bidder buys it. That is because that buyer has determined it is worth more than anyone else thought it was worth. Are the others wrong? Is the buyer wrong? The others have decided it was not worth that much. It doesn't only happen in auctions. Have you gone through a grocery store and see something that looked good but decided not to buy it because it was more than you thought it was worth?

    NADA? that is also a worthless piece of paper. Go into a dealership and say, "well NADA, Blue Book says it is worth X amount. Sell it to me for that." They will say, no, we want," X + 1000". Worth is an individual concept. Saying that only people that want to buy it should respond is nonsense, since this can be proven every minute on ebay since someone else is always willing to pay more. Even if I want the object, that doesn't mean it is worth the same to me as it does to others. Again, this have been proven through eBay since I have been out bid on some objects. I have also won some objects. Meaning that object was worth more to me that anyone else at that time.

    Any object is worth what it is worth to the seller and the buyer. And that is all.
    Last edited by SweetLou; 11-26-08 at 12:14 AM.
    Learn what's a platform pedal.

  21. #21
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
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    Well, I promise to help if I can.
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  22. #22
    If I own it, I ride it CV-6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
    So, my opinion means nothing unless I want to buy it? As regard to the Mona Lisa or anything else that is for sale through an auction. the highest bidder buys it. That is because that buyer has determined it is worth more than anyone else thought it was worth. Are the others wrong? Is the buyer wrong? The others have decided it was not worth that much. It doesn't only happen in auctions. Have you gone through a grocery store and see something that looked good but decided not to buy it because it was more than you thought it was worth?
    Not what I said. I said interested party. That would be someone who has sold, bought, or has followed the sale of an item over a period of time. Sorry I did not define that for you. My parallel of the Mona Lisa and your logic stands.

    NADA? that is also a worthless piece of paper. Go into a dealership and say, "well NADA, Blue Book says it is worth X amount. Sell it to me for that." They will say, no, we want," X + 1000". Worth is an individual concept. Saying that only people that want to buy it should respond is nonsense, since this can be proven every minute on ebay since someone else is always willing to pay more. Even if I want the object, that doesn't mean it is worth the same to me as it does to others. Again, this have been proven through eBay since I have been out bid on some objects. I have also won some objects. Meaning that object was worth more to me that anyone else at that time.

    Any object is worth what it is worth to the seller and the buyer. And that is all.
    No one says NADA is an absolute value. Even NADA says it is an average of sales over a period. As I said in the original post, high sales and low sales average out over time. And congratulations, you used NADA in your example in exactly the way it was meant to work. So it is not a worthless piece of paper as it provides a guideline for automotive pricing for both the dealer and the buying public.

    I did not say that only people who are interested in buying should respond. Again, I said interested party, for which perhaps informed person could be substituted. See definition in earlier part of this response. And you are right that ultimate worth is established by the seller and buyer. The purpose of this forum is to provide informed valuations/guidelines on bicycle pricing based on what people have bought/sold or have observed. It is not to establish ultimate worth.
    Lynn Travers

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    Seems to me easy enough to offer a genial, good-humored range of possibilities in valuation. At least they make it look easy enough on "Antiques Roadshow" - and without the torturous ontological, epistemological and semantic arguments over the "nature" of "worth."

    Also, can we fix the thread title to read Inquiries rather than Inquires?

  24. #24
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    1959 Bottecchia Professional (frame), 1966 Bottecchia Professional (in progress...), 1971 Bottecchia Professional (frame), 1973 Bottecchia Gran Turismo, 1974 Bottecchia Special (in progress...), 1977 Bottecchia Special (frame), 1974 Peugeot UO-8
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    You'd think it would be easy enough but all too often it devolves into an argument that should be moved to the P&R forum. I'm primarily (I'd say almost exclusively) interested in Bottecchias so when I got tired of the whole issue about a year ago I started monitoring completed sales on eBay and recording the basic information: year, model, tubing type, component group, color, condition, price and any pertinant information I think might affect the price. No doubt I've missed a few but I try to check every two weeks or so. Thus I think I would qualify as an interested and knowledgeable party and can give a fair estimate of the value of a Bottecchia. Perhaps there are others doing similar things with their favorite brands. If that database ever gets started on Velobase I'd be happy to contribute the information I've collected.
    1959 Bottecchia Professional (frame), 1966 Bottecchia Professional, 1971 Bottecchia Professional (frame),
    1973 Bottecchia Gran Turismo, 1974 Bottecchia Special, 1977 Bottecchia Special (frame),
    1974 Peugeot UO-8, 1988 Panasonic PT-3500, 2002 Bianchi Veloce, 2004 Bianchi Pista

  25. #25
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    Southern Florida
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    http://www.theheadbadge.com
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    I propose that we add a picture requirement for all threads here. Too many clueless idiots have been popping up, asking for valuations based on absolutely vague descriptions and no photos. Such threads serve only to clutter the forum and waste the time of whoever responds to it trying to help.

    -Kurt

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